I think the G2 still has the best camera by quite a margin if you know how to use it, and I haven't even tried 4k or other camera improvement mods. The only thing the HTC phones have on it is low light pictures, which I don't think most people do anyway.
The OIS helps a hell of a lot for someone like me that has a hand tremor that's really bad at times.
What's your opinion on the camera? I'd rather have my phone than a $200 point and shoot as long as I don't need to zoom.
Sent from my LG-D800 using xda app-developers app
it's good under a lot of conditions, but very, very slow. Until you mod it. Then it's all around slick.
I've compared it to a Samsung Galaxy S4 and Lenovo Vibe Z camera (with f/1.8 lens) and both were less precise by a wide margin and frequently had pictures ruined by hand shaking.
The OIS doesn't just counteract the visible shaking; it reduces micro-shakes that blur your pictures without you noticing them. As a result the accuracy of this camera is about 3 megapixels higher than normal (my estimate).
All this being said, it's still a cellphone camera, so it has major flaws. It has only an f/2.4 aperture, which is mediocre for a high-end phone (though OIS counters it a bit by reducing subject-motion blur). Movement and low-light photos get ruined often. And I disagree that these aren't common conditions.
here's a quick demonstration and proof of the sharpness difference between Samsung Galaxy S4 and LG G2:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Samsung Galaxy S4
LG G2
the top pic is what the S4's pic looked like when it did NOT get blurred by hand shaking. most pictures turned out worse than that.
Didn't the OIS not only kick in for videos? Just saying... Sounds like placebo to me. I don't shake much usually, but I get a lot of blur pics...
Sent from my LG G2 using Tapatalk
The stock camera is pretty good but I tried out Jishnu's cam mod and its great 4k is really beautiful though the 720p 120fps is very pixelated and imo not really usable. There's some features that are supposed to be included like HFR mode for front camera but I don't seem to have it for some reason.
nomad4ever said:
Didn't the OIS not only kick in for videos? Just saying... Sounds like placebo to me. I don't shake much usually, but I get a lot of blur pics...
Sent from my LG G2 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It works for video and picture.
Sent from my LG-D800 using xda app-developers app
TheNetwork said:
I think the G2 still has the best camera by quite a margin if you know how to use it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this should be posted on every page of every camera thread here.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2441127
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2444609
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2607744
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2525655
mannequin said:
this should be posted on every page of every camera thread here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second that
for me lg g2 has good camera and ios. lg g3 will better
Gesendet von meinem LG-D802 mit Tapatalk
mannequin said:
this should be posted on every page of every camera thread here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are there some tips to be shared?
I can get some seriously crisp photos and then crap for awhile.
I'm still all stock and the focusing is the worst I have ever experienced, no joke. Really.
Good at day, horrible at low light.
willowpc said:
Good at day, horrible at low light.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I find it to be significantly better at low light than my Samsung phones were. HTC is definitely better at night but terrible at day. Sam used to black out completely when the light got even slightly dim. On my g2 it at least tries to get somewhat of a picture without relying on flash which makes pictures an ugly blue.
Sent from my LG-D800 using xda app-developers app
TheNetwork said:
I find it to be significantly better at low light than my Samsung phones were.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks to optical stabilizer in G2 , I guess.
Can anyone compare it with the Nexus 5 camera experience?
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
The g2 has a terrible camera. On a sunny day it works great but on an overcast day. Or around 6/7 pm when the sun is going down it's pure garbage. This camera take in almost no light. There's no reason why in my kitchen with my light on lets say a 5/10 brightness should pictures be almost black. On my lumia and iPhone 5s, hell even my iPhone 3gs the view finders were all still lit bright and pictures were taken basically how my eye saw them.
LG really screwed up on the camera . this phone would have been perfect if it wasn't for the poor view finder lag/low light . there should be no noise on a photo in reasonable light and there is no reason why an ISO of 200 produces a dark image indoors with dim lighting when my ancient iPhone 3gs takes a beter low light indoor shot . I hope the g3 is a better camera or I'm jumping back to Nokia and wp8.1
Sent from my LG-D800 using xda app-developers app
heres an exampe of the terrible light intake of this phone. first image is on the lumai 920 in normal mode at 200 iso the second image is on the g2 in normal mode on 200 iso. itsblurry but thats notthe problem bother were taken at 730 ish am in the same spot , i just woke up please excuse the mess also this is daylight coming in from the window behind me the room light was off
Sent from my LG-D800 using xda app-developers app[/QUOTE]
joeynox said:
The g2 has a terrible camera. On a sunny day it works great but on an overcast day. Or around 6/7 pm when the sun is going down it's pure garbage. This camera take in almost no light. There's no reason why in my kitchen with my light on lets say a 5/10 brightness should pictures be almost black. On my lumia and iPhone 5s, hell even my iPhone 3gs the view finders were all still lit bright and pictures were taken basically how my eye saw them.
LG really screwed up on the camera . this phone would have been perfect if it wasn't for the poor view finder lag/low light . there should be no noise on a photo in reasonable light and there is no reason why an ISO of 200 produces a dark image indoors with dim lighting when my ancient iPhone 3gs takes a beter low light indoor shot . I hope the g3 is a better camera or I'm jumping back to Nokia and wp8.1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You really don't know nothing you're talking about. Fire up intelligent Auto mode and stop set iso to 200. G2 knows better what ISO it should make picture in. It has Snapdragon 800 under the hood which one is supposedly x1000 much smarter and x1000 times faster than your s****d brain :laugh:
Billy Madison said:
You really don't know nothing you're talking about. Fire up intelligent Auto mode and stop set iso to 200. G2 knows better what ISO it should make picture in. It has Snapdragon 800 under the hood which one is supposedly x1000 much smarter and x1000 times faster than your s****d brain :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my IA is a dumb dumb. , the problem with IA is that the image will still have a high iso and have noise or be extremely soft. yes you are correct it will brighten the image but at the cost of image quality and noise.
joeynox said:
my IA is a dumb dumb. , the problem with IA is that the image will still have a high iso and have noise or be extremely soft. yes you are correct it will brighten the image but at the cost of image quality and noise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, I see your point, you want stock camera to point-and-shoot and make descent pix. and I want stock player to play Adobe flash w/o any hassles. and someone want G2 to play music loud in stereo with BoomSound. That's why xda exists, there was not made a phone to be perfect from the box. maybe you may want to try some 3rd party cameras like http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.GoogleCamera or https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.almalence.opencam https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.almalence.hdr_plus
Related
hi guys, i took a look around the forum regarding high lvls of noise in the pictures in low light conditions, but mine just seems to be worse! this pic was taken on auto, in a corner of the room. 5.22pm, with the sunlight behind me. this happens in the video too; other videos taken at night(on youtube) that i've seen seem to be almost grain free. should i get a replacement?
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
here's a short video taken in the same room http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bCXYfM62Vw&feature=youtu.be
For sure that camera didnt work correct
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
I have same thing! Maybe even worst. Picture I just take is with outdoor light thats coming through window.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Chagrim said:
I have same thing! Maybe even worst. Picture I just take is with outdoor light thats coming through window.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh boy that's indeed worse...why do others have such good quality? i wonder if it's hardware =(
here's a shot of the street; this is so frustrating ='(
I think some of you guys expect to much from a mobile phone camera, this is not a DSLR or EOS. The camera makes descent pictures with sufficient lighting but not in the dark or darker twilight condition.
gee2012 said:
I think some of you guys expect to much from a mobile phone camera, this is not a DSLR or EOS. The camera makes descent pictures with sufficient lighting but not in the dark or darker twilight condition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i scoured the whole forum, and i've seen pics with better quality in worse conditions..and apparently this is due to the firmware version(Z being inferior samsung sensor, G sony). double checked with friends who have good/bad pics and their firmware versions so im pretty sure now. just sent an email to samsung...i'm pretty pissed about this. can this be considered fraud?! same price for inferior products -_-"
SexyIceCream said:
i scoured the whole forum, and i've seen pics with better quality in worse conditions..and apparently this is due to the firmware version(Z being inferior samsung sensor, G sony). double checked with friends who have good/bad pics and their firmware versions so im pretty sure now. just sent an email to samsung...i'm pretty pissed about this. can this be considered fraud?! same price for inferior products -_-"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony has a better camera, especialy with low lighting. The best camera phone is still the N8. No it`s not fraude because you buy a phone as it is, not as you want it to be.
check camera settings.
Try manually selecting a lower iso.. that will reduce the noise, but results in a darker shot or longer shutter speed.
You can't just post a picture without specifying the iso and shutter speed to tell if the camera is taking worse pictures.. especially since every environment is different.
gee2012 said:
I think some of you guys expect to much from a mobile phone camera, this is not a DSLR or EOS. The camera makes descent pictures with sufficient lighting but not in the dark or darker twilight condition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes that's true! But my HTC ONE S and the oldest GS2 makes better picture than my GS3!
I hope SAMSUNG will fix it...
BlueG2 said:
Try manually selecting a lower iso.. that will reduce the noise, but results in a darker shot or longer shutter speed.
You can't just post a picture without specifying the iso and shutter speed to tell if the camera is taking worse pictures.. especially since every environment is different.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
true that...i'll keep that in mind as i try to take more test shots. but the video should be obivous too, right? since theres no mode or such for the video. other youtube videos i've seen of indoors have close to no noise, but it runs rampant in mine.
P.S. this is a pic i found on another s3 forum, person claims it was taken on auto.
heres my shot of a street, also on auto
you see the difference? =(
Auto contrast off
try it
SexyIceCream said:
P.S. this is a pic i found on another s3 forum, person claims it was taken on auto.
heres my shot of a street, also on auto
you see the difference? =(
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like I said, Auto doesn't mean anything.. people need to specify the same setting to compare photos. The metering from the camera can easily be thrown off with a bright light or dark area causing the camera to select different ISO/shutter speeds even at the same location. Different camera firmwares between units may also cause for different 'auto' settings. Even using different camera apps can effect the image quality and settings.
I just took a peek at your photo and the file info showed that it was shot at 1600iso. That would explain all the noise and why your image seems 'brighter' than the photo you found as 1600iso is very high (I think highest). I can't even get my camera to shoot below 800iso even in the darkest settings (not that I'd want to). That 800-1600iso jump makes a big impact on image quality.
On the photo you found, the camera info also wasn't available so the picture might even be edited. I'm going to guess however that it was shot at 800iso.. and definitely much less than your 1600.
So I can't say there's anything wrong with your images you provided as I would expect that type of quality on those settings.
SexyIceCream said:
hi guys, i took a look around the forum
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do u have antishake and auto contrast ON? if yes turn them off and when u take a pic u have to be REALLY still, otherwise the pics will be blurry, also u can try taking a pic with HDR mode, it makes a huge difference
gee2012 said:
Sony has a better camera, especialy with low lighting. The best camera phone is still the N8. No it`s not fraude because you buy a phone as it is, not as you want it to be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Off-topic here: Isn't the new Lumia 808 better at taking pictures than the N8?
On-topic: my SGS3 also takes bad pictures on low light, but I have yet to see anything other than a full-blown camera do otherwise. It does seem to get better with any of the following:
HDR Shooting Mode
Night Scene Mode (slower shutter)
Manually set lower ISO (takes darker pics)
You would have same result if the condition and settings are the same...
Every image will become worst if it has high ISO... Manually lower your ISO and you will have a better image... You may need a better lighting for this... I just dont know if it's possible to control manually the hutter speed of galaxy s3 for low ISO settings?
wicked1683 said:
You would have same result if the condition and settings are the same...
Every image will become worst if it has high ISO... Manually lower your ISO and you will have a better image... You may need a better lighting for this... I just dont know if it's possible to control manually the hutter speed of galaxy s3 for low ISO settings?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Camera FV-5
will let you control the shutter speed.
But in my exprince the photos arnt that good . i have tried only indoors.
it produce like BW pics.
But then i am no expert in shutter timers and such. but you can try it.
scroll down to see my post with updated pics with the new tricks!!
so one thing i noticed is that the camera doesn't light up the flash to focus when you have the flash on like most other phones do (the S3 is one)
this makes low light shots 10x worse on the DNA than the S3 for example. If there was a way to make the camera flash while focusing so it can actually get that thing in focus in the dark, then i believe low light pictures would come out much better.
i've tried Camera JB+ but it's the same as the stock...wonder if theres a cmaera app out there that uses the flash while focusing? any thoughts?
here's two pics:
http://imgur.com/a/Bb5ju
the first is the S3. the second is the DNA. since when you focus with the S3, the flash comes on, it was easily able to focus and get a better shot. on the DNA, it was blindly focusing on whatever, despite the fact the screen was black since there was no light in the room.
you can also notice how soft the DNA seems...which is the post-processing "auto enhance" crap that HTC forced us to use on this camera. on my Rezound, i always turned that off because it looked awful, and now they're not giving us a chance to.
I'm very interested in the answer to this, as I think that low-light shots with flash are absolute garbage on the DNA. I love everything about the phone except for that. I think even my old Blunderbolt did better.
earthrocker said:
so one thing i noticed is that the camera doesn't light up the flash to focus when you have the flash on like most other phones do (the S3 is one)
this makes low light shots 10x worse on the DNA than the S3 for example. If there was a way to make the camera flash while focusing so it can actually get that thing in focus in the dark, then i believe low light pictures would come out much better.
i've tried Camera JB+ but it's the same as the stock...wonder if theres a cmaera app out there that uses the flash while focusing? any thoughts?
here's two pics:
http://imgur.com/a/Bb5ju
the first is the S3. the second is the DNA. since when you focus with the S3, the flash comes on, it was easily able to focus and get a better shot. on the DNA, it was blindly focusing on whatever, despite the fact the screen was black since there was no light in the room.
you can also notice how soft the DNA seems...which is the post-processing "auto enhance" crap that HTC forced us to use on this camera. on my Rezound, i always turned that off because it looked awful, and now they're not giving us a chance to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
odesskiy said:
I'm very interested in the answer to this, as I think that low-light shots with flash are absolute garbage on the DNA. I love everything about the phone except for that. I think even my old Blunderbolt did better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the big problem here is Auto ISO. do me a favor, turn the ISO to 200, and then try to take a low-light photo with flash. It may be very hard to focus on exactly where you want, but i guarantee there will be MUCH less noise. the ISO over-compensates, and at auto, its very grainy. i took pitch black shots last night at iso 200 and 400 with flash on, and to my surprise there wasn't much noise.
also, turn your sharpness up +1. this helps compensate for HTC's built in auto-enhance, which tends to "blur" the background out to try to get rid of noise..the rezound had this too, and i always had it off because it looks terrible. unfortunately, on the DNA, you can't turn it off yet.
I know it's not the solution you were looking for, but on my Rezound if I were taking very low light shots I'd turn on my flashlight app first, so the flash would be on permanently. The phone would then both focus with and take the photo with the flash on.
Until such time as a solution is found, feel free to try my hassle of a work-around haha
xxfallacyxx said:
I know it's not the solution you were looking for, but on my Rezound if I were taking very low light shots I'd turn on my flashlight app first, so the flash would be on permanently. The phone would then both focus with and take the photo with the flash on.
Until such time as a solution is found, feel free to try my hassle of a work-around haha
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey thanks for the tip! what app did you use to do it? that would be great, but unfortunately, the flashlight shuts off the second i enter the camera app :\
It might just be part of the ROM I'm on, but I use the flashlight toggle from the quick-settings pull down menu. If that's the case, then I apologize for getting your hopes up haha.
ahh dang! yeah, tiny flashlihgt doesn't let me keep it on when going into the camera app
earthrocker said:
the big problem here is Auto ISO. do me a favor, turn the ISO to 200, and then try to take a low-light photo with flash. It may be very hard to focus on exactly where you want, but i guarantee there will be MUCH less noise. the ISO over-compensates, and at auto, its very grainy. i took pitch black shots last night at iso 200 and 400 with flash on, and to my surprise there wasn't much noise.
also, turn your sharpness up +1. this helps compensate for HTC's built in auto-enhance, which tends to "blur" the background out to try to get rid of noise..the rezound had this too, and i always had it off because it looks terrible. unfortunately, on the DNA, you can't turn it off yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and change white balance to flourescent, this will make photo not yellowish.
Sweet! I'm gonna try this tonight at home. I've been trying to take pictures of my Xmas tree, which is really beautiful and photos were coming out horrid. Too bad you can't save all these settings to some sort of a preset to be enabled quickly for low-light shots
guys, I've figured out the secret to low light shots! the pic I took looks identical to the gs3 now, from what I can tell on my dna. check it out!
set your iso to 200...always use 200 for least noise possible. put sharpness up + 1. then, the secret here, jack exposure up ALL THE WAY! bam! great night shots with flash that even focus decently too. your screen will be black bevsuseThe iso is so low, but take the pic and you'll see!
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Sent from my HTC Droid DNA using Tapatalk 2
Holy crap! That totally worked! Much, much better results! Now we need some sort of a settings switcher for the camera
Check the contrast
Hey all, this is my first post and I know that I'm a noob - glad I got that out of the way.
As I read these posts and looked at the settings on my DNA, I found that by defult HTC sets their contrast WAY too high - it actually makes the pictures look darker. So I suggest that you play around with the contrast. I lowered it all the way down and my scenes look brighter and cleaner.
Yes, ISO 200 and 400 work best. Also, if you want to make your images looks 'artsy,' the camera app has built in filters.
Well, that's all I have for you all.
Later.
xeroatticus said:
Hey all, this is my first post and I know that I'm a noob - glad I got that out of the way.
As I read these posts and looked at the settings on my DNA, I found that by defult HTC sets their contrast WAY too high - it actually makes the pictures look darker. So I suggest that you play around with the contrast. I lowered it all the way down and my scenes look brighter and cleaner.
Yes, ISO 200 and 400 work best. Also, if you want to make your images looks 'artsy,' the camera app has built in filters.
Well, that's all I have for you all.
Later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey, thanks for the contribution! i'm going to give the contrast a shot now. i never really played that much around with that, just ISO and exposure. thanks!
ok so here's a small contrast comparison:
the first picture is contrast -1
the second picture is stock contrast
which looks better to you?
http://imgur.com/a/Jjplk
earthrocker said:
ok so here's a small contrast comparison:
the first picture is contrast -1
the second picture is stock contrast
which looks better to you?
http://imgur.com/a/Jjplk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tonight i'm going to try some night shots again, wtih the same liquor cabinet pic, but make the contrast -1 and -2 and throw them up here.
Great thread and info guys. Always looking to make phone camera pics the best possible...
Some of my own tests
Hey, I like the first image: the one that has stock contrast.
I will also be making some tests, I will post them soon.
HDR is also a great option under well lit conditions. It will give the the greatest range.
xeroatticus said:
Hey, I like the first image: the one that has stock contrast.
I will also be making some tests, I will post them soon.
HDR is also a great option under well lit conditions. It will give the the greatest range.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
to be honest, i never really knew what HDR meant or did lol sometimes it looks great, soemtimes terrible
xeroatticus said:
Hey, I like the first image: the one that has stock contrast.
I will also be making some tests, I will post them soon.
HDR is also a great option under well lit conditions. It will give the the greatest range.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
btw the first pic is the -1 contrast..second is stock..
Very interesting thread!
Sorry, it's a little bit of a rant , I just can't believe google, how can they screw up the HDR+ mode so bad? The HDR+ makes the photos, specially the ones at night look amazing but it also makes the camera almost useless, it slow downs the camera/ phone and it takes like 4 seconds to take a single shot :/ and even worse if you take let's say 3 photos, it just queues the photo editing of the photos, so you have to wait 12 seconds to see the last pic you took.
Nexus 6p and pretty much all of the nexus phones (nexus 5, nexus 6) need the longest of any flagship I've tried to capture a HDR+ pic :/ , the galaxy s6, the LG G4, the iphone 6/6s you just snap a HDR picture and it's already on the gallery by the time you open it.
I love hdr+ and has been trying to flash it on every phone since N5 ?
Sent from a mobile gadget...
HDR+ makes a huge difference. It does a good Job..they do need to work on the app though
I think most of these posters have never used a phone outside of stock Android. I had the G4 and Note 5 before getting my 6P, and I can tell you that compared to the HDR modes of both LG and Samsung, the Google Camera HDR+ mode is truly awful. Yes it's a bit better than the non-HDR mode, but not by much. HDR on LG and Samsung makes a huge difference, and those images are almost instantly view-able.
Huh, this has not been my experience.
geoff5093 said:
I think most of these posters have never used a phone outside of stock Android. I had the G4 and Note 5 before getting my 6P, and I can tell you that compared to the HDR modes of both LG and Samsung, the Google Camera HDR+ mode is truly awful. Yes it's a bit better than the non-HDR mode, but not by much. HDR on LG and Samsung makes a huge difference, and those images are almost instantly view-able.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a former S6 owner, the HDR results from Samsung are (majority of the time) over-processed and the picture, while high in dynamic range, looks unnatural. I've had great results with my 6P and HDR mode. The pictures come out with good dynamic range and they look a lot more natural.
What I mean is, its a small device with so many features. Not a DSLR? I think I'm a decent photographer and the camera on this phone is outstanding
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
daewond3r said:
As a former S6 owner, the HDR results from Samsung are (majority of the time) over-processed and the picture, while high in dynamic range, looks unnatural. I've had great results with my 6P and HDR mode. The pictures come out with good dynamic range and they look a lot more natural.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I strongly disagree, unless you think these shots from my Note 5 are "unnaturally overprocessed":
Untitled by Geoff Johnson, on Flickr
Untitled by Geoff Johnson, on Flickr
Subaru WRX STI by Geoff Johnson, on Flickr
The 6P photos come out dull most of the time. Here are some of my keepers from my 6P:
Untitled by Geoff Johnson, on Flickr
The LG G4 is definitely my favorite:
Untitled by Geoff Johnson, on Flickr
Untitled by Geoff Johnson, on Flickr
I'm not saying the 6P isn't good, it is for a Nexus definitely. I'm saying HDR mode doesn't even compare to that of LG and Samsung.
geoff5093 said:
I strongly disagree, unless you think these shots from my Note 5 are "unnaturally overprocessed":
The LG G4 is definitely my favorite
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most certainly without doubt over processed. Your N5/G4 pics do not resemble natural at all.... The world is not saturated like that. Just as all Samsung AMOLED displays are awfully over saturated. Just happy 6P has sRGB mode to lessen that effect.
HDR acceptable for low light, other than that it sucks, my opinion anyway. HDR is a novelty and compensation for the weakness of phone cameras. That is all it is. If you want real contrast, learn photography rather than touting how amazing the G4 is? My suggestion. I am not a photographer but have never been impressed by any phone camera vs an actual DSLR by an amateur enthusiast.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
zymphad said:
Most certainly without doubt over processed. Your N5/G4 pics do not resemble natural at all.... The world is not saturated like that. Just as all Samsung AMOLED displays are awfully over saturated. Just happy 6P has sRGB mode to lessen that effect.
HDR acceptable for low light, other than that it sucks, my opinion anyway. HDR is a novelty and compensation for the weakness of phone cameras. That is all it is. If you want real contrast, learn photography rather than touting how amazing the G4 is? My suggestion. I am not a photographer but have never been impressed by any phone camera vs an actual DSLR by an amateur enthusiast.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Completely false, you are just used to the dull photos from the Nexus. Have you ever been to a New England fall day? It's most definitely that saturated. These look very similar to how they look out of camera from my DSLR as well.
No one wants to look at 100% natural photos either, slightly saturated adds a nice look to photos to make them pop. There is a difference between over saturated and a good looking photo though.
HDR for low light? Do you know what HDR actually does? Low light is when you don't want to use it due to taking an over exposed shot in a dark shot will lead to excessive ISO and or blurred images.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I live in New England and HDR are by definition over saturated contrast enhanced processed and IMO Samsung/LG are the worst. Apple probably the best. Real camera trumps them all. I prefer real life over saturated digital. Personally hope someday phone cameras will improve someday and HDR will be a terrible memory people will laugh thinking, people really thought HDR was a good idea?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
No doubt that camera app lack behind of Samsung, Apple and LG.
A couple posts removed. And I'll remind folks to post respectfully, or don't bother posting. :good:
Darth
Forum Moderator
zymphad said:
Most certainly without doubt over processed. Your N5/G4 pics do not resemble natural at all.... The world is not saturated like that. Just as all Samsung AMOLED displays are awfully over saturated. Just happy 6P has sRGB mode to lessen that effect.
HDR acceptable for low light, other than that it sucks, my opinion anyway. HDR is a novelty and compensation for the weakness of phone cameras. That is all it is. If you want real contrast, learn photography rather than touting how amazing the G4 is? My suggestion. I am not a photographer but have never been impressed by any phone camera vs an actual DSLR by an amateur enthusiast.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
geoff5093 said:
Completely false, you are just used to the dull photos from the Nexus. Have you ever been to a New England fall day? It's most definitely that saturated. These look very similar to how they look out of camera from my DSLR as well.
No one wants to look at 100% natural photos either, slightly saturated adds a nice look to photos to make them pop. There is a difference between over saturated and a good looking photo though.
HDR for low light? Do you know what HDR actually does? Low light is when you don't want to use it due to taking an over exposed shot in a dark shot will lead to excessive ISO and or blurred images.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also have to disagree. Although the camera on the 6p is better then the 6 which was better then the 5 etc its still far from "great"
The photos on my S6 were amazing and fast.
The software on the stock android for camera is horrible. The only reason i was excited for the 6p camera vs the S6 was the 240fps for slowmo and unless the sun is directly above you theres an absurd amount of noise PLUS you cant export the slomo video after you finish putting the slomo parts in so you can only view it on Google Photos otherwise the entire video is slow.
Everyone is missing op's point.
He/she is saying that it takes a long time for the app to do it's thing. To take the shot and process the image.
geoff5093 said:
I think most of these posters have never used a phone outside of stock Android. I had the G4 and Note 5 before getting my 6P, and I can tell you that compared to the HDR modes of both LG and Samsung, the Google Camera HDR+ mode is truly awful. Yes it's a bit better than the non-HDR mode, but not by much. HDR on LG and Samsung makes a huge difference, and those images are almost instantly view-able.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is entirely true. I bought myself a note 4 used along with a 128 gig card, since it was going cheap, took a HDR shot and its .. instantaneous. Zero wait time.. click, point and shoot and view a second later.
---------- Post added at 06:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 AM ----------
zymphad said:
Most certainly without doubt over processed. Your N5/G4 pics do not resemble natural at all.... The world is not saturated like that. Just as all Samsung AMOLED displays are awfully over saturated. Just happy 6P has sRGB mode to lessen that effect.
HDR acceptable for low light, other than that it sucks, my opinion anyway. HDR is a novelty and compensation for the weakness of phone cameras. That is all it is. If you want real contrast, learn photography rather than touting how amazing the G4 is? My suggestion. I am not a photographer but have never been impressed by any phone camera vs an actual DSLR by an amateur enthusiast.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All samsung phones also do have the ability to be switched to SRGB (basic display mode i think). It makes a LOT of difference, if you prefer your display to be flat like that.
---------- Post added at 06:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 AM ----------
dontbeweakvato said:
Everyone is missing op's point.
He/she is saying that it takes a long time for the app to do it's thing. To take the shot and process the image.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty much this.
It does take a long time to process the photo. My G3 never took this long but HDR works better then my G3 for pulling up the shadows. But I rarely use it on any phones and the times I've used it, I was pretty happy with the results that I tested. I've done it a few times on my DSLR manually but I don't do it much.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
You do realize that the HDR+ in Google's camera app does a lot more than just a regular HDR mode??? http://petapixel.com/2014/10/30/look-googles-impressive-hdr-feature-latest-nexus-phone-cameras/
It takes a lot to pull off the shots that this camera can take. BTW, I have a Note 4 and the 6p is definitely better. Also, if you dislike HDR so much, then just turn it off!
z06mike said:
You do realize that the HDR+ in Google's camera app does a lot more than just a regular HDR mode??? http://petapixel.com/2014/10/30/look-googles-impressive-hdr-feature-latest-nexus-phone-cameras/
It takes a lot to pull off the shots that this camera can take. BTW, I have a Note 4 and the 6p is definitely better. Also, if you dislike HDR so much, then just turn it off!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do realize that such comments are useless?? Who cares what Google's hdr does. It doesn't take a genius to realize their camera app is simple junk. It is like 10 years behind Apple and Samsung and it will probably keep being that way as long as there are users like you that will justify them no matter what.
Disagree completely, I have the note 5, and some how the 6p is taking less blurry and equally sick photos
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Though this upload doesn't do justice, and its 6pm
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
As I got a P10 (sadly not the P10 Plus) at MWC, I have been out and about in Barcelona taking photos.
I thought it was probably a good idea to create a thread for others to post to.
Here are my first photos at night:
https://jmcomms.com/2017/02/26/huawei-p10-night-photos-around-barcelona-and-first-impressions/
Followed by some in the late afternoon:
https://jmcomms.com/2017/02/27/huawei-p10-more-photos-around-barcelona-during-mwc-2017/
And an open Google Photos gallery that anyone can contribute to.
https://goo.gl/photos/BCfjQvk6zQmwm9w79
The camera is pretty much identical to the Mate 9, but it does have the new portrait functions (that may come to the Mate 9 in a future update).
It's a nice phone, but one complaint is that with the phone being so thin, you can easily grip the phone in such a way that you can't use the on-screen shutter to take a photo. It doesn't discount any other touches on the screen, so I've had many moments where I missed a shot because my thumb was EVER SO slightly touching the edge of the screen.
Sometimes bezels have their uses!
4K video samples; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCuoPs57Q4Q
jonmorris said:
It's a nice phone, but one complaint is that with the phone being so thin, you can easily grip the phone in such a way that you can't use the on-screen shutter to take a photo. It doesn't discount any other touches on the screen, so I've had many moments where I missed a shot because my thumb was EVER SO slightly touching the edge of the screen.
Sometimes bezels have their uses!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can always use the volume keys as a shutter.
ch1lko said:
You can always use the volume keys as a shutter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, and I do but it's not in the ideal position. I wish more companies would use two stage shutters like Sony.
I made some night shots for testing:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
All tree are made in ISO 50, the first two are at 30 sec. shutter speed, the third one at 4 sec.
I think the camera is really good at night with the right settings. I tried to make similar pics with my i6S but they weren't that good.
Got my P10 yesterday and here is my first shot (with aperture mode).
Jannomag said:
I made some night shots for testing:
All tree are made in ISO 50, the first two are at 30 sec. shutter speed, the third one at 4 sec.
I think the camera is really good at night with the right settings. I tried to make similar pics with my i6S but they weren't that good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great shots. On your iPhone have you or did you try using Nightcap Pro?
P10 is still using a BSI CMOS but the night shots were really not bad. It'd be better if it upgraded to Stacked CMOS like Exmor RS.
Is it good with moving subjects? I have an OP3 and the camera has major difficulties in handling kids and babies, especially indoors, even with decent light.
vicusbass said:
Is it good with moving subjects? I have an OP3 and the camera has major difficulties in handling kids and babies, especially indoors, even with decent light.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would be interested in this as well. I have an OP3T and can't shoot my dog and nephew indoors.
I managed to test the P10 out in the store, and EXIF showed, that it uses faster shutter than the 3T indoors. Did not manage to shoot any people tough :/
I have it for 4 days now and its camera is MUCH MUCH better than OP3. Better results than iphone 7, just the colors a bit more fake, sometimes. Fast camera, shocking fast fingerprint reader, charging speed and battery feels a bit better on OP3, not big differences.
Screen is dirtier than most phones though. I'm getting used to it. Also, headphones volume a bit thin.
But camera... I hated Op3 camera, my baby photos were always blurry. Not the case anymore.
davebugyi said:
Would be interested in this as well. I have an OP3T and can't shoot my dog and nephew indoors.
I managed to test the P10 out in the store, and EXIF showed, that it uses faster shutter than the 3T indoors. Did not manage to shoot any people tough :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
vicusbass said:
I have it for 4 days now and its camera is MUCH MUCH better than OP3. Better results than iphone 7, just the colors a bit more fake, sometimes. Fast camera, shocking fast fingerprint reader, charging speed and battery feels a bit better on OP3, not big differences.
Screen is dirtier than most phones though. I'm getting used to it. Also, headphones volume a bit thin.
But camera... I hated Op3 camera, my baby photos were always blurry. Not the case anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This sounds fantastic. Do you still have the OP3? Can you try to shoot some pics indoors abouth the same object with the two and tell the EXIF (details option in gallery) ? No need to post the pics, just the ISO, Shutter between the P10 and OP3.
Thank you.
alular said:
P10 is still using a BSI CMOS but the night shots were really not bad. It'd be better if it upgraded to Stacked CMOS like Exmor RS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The IMX286 used as the color sensor in the P10 is listed as a Exmor rs sensor on the Wiki. Also in the mate 9 review on GSM arena. They wrote, that the phone is benefitting from the light input of both the sensors. So the f:2.2 apeture is actually f:1.7.
I don't own the phone. But I'm considering buying it as a replacement for my HTC One M8. When i bought that, the camera wasn't a priority. But that is changed for my next purchase.
ClausG76 said:
The IMX286 used as the color sensor in the P10 is listed as a Exmor rs sensor on the Wiki. Also in the mate 9 review on GSM arena. They wrote, that the phone is benefitting from the light input of both the sensors. So the f:2.2 apeture is actually f:1.7.
I don't own the phone. But I'm considering buying it as a replacement for my HTC One M8. When i bought that, the camera wasn't a priority. But that is changed for my next purchase.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you explain a bit how is it: "the phone is benefitting from the light input of both the sensors. So the f:2.2 apeture is actually f:1.7." ? I'm interested in this phone but f:2.2 is more than the f:1.8 of P10 Plus. Anyway, i dont know how much can be the shutter speed in pro mode.
Loving my P10 Plus, The camera is amazing, Here are some of my photos.
http://imgur.com/a/bQIki
http://imgur.com/a/dNjy6
http://imgur.com/a/ftgPI
http://imgur.com/a/WCsBs
Unfortunately no. My OP3 had a lot of dust on the lens, inside (i had a lot of phones, this never happened with any...). So I sent it to the Service Center and... DHL lost it.
Anyway. I remember in auto mode OP3 was always 1/17 with ISO from 1000 to 3000+. Any movement turned into blur usually. Very annoying. Then they made some update and it was using 1/20 and lower ISO. Still blurry. Manual shots were slightly better, sometimes.
With P10, same living room, it does 1/17 to 1/25, ISO from 200 to 640. BUT no blur anymore, so most likely OP3 problem is the damn postprocessing. In manual mode, you can really catch the action. Outside, ISO goes to 50 in good light. Interesting, sometimes indoors the picture looks brighter than the reality in auto mode, but in a good way ☺
Greens are slightly fake sometime.
davebugyi said:
Would be interested in this as well. I have an OP3T and can't shoot my dog and nephew indoors.
I managed to test the P10 out in the store, and EXIF showed, that it uses faster shutter than the 3T indoors. Did not manage to shoot any people tough :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
davebugyi said:
This sounds fantastic. Do you still have the OP3? Can you try to shoot some pics indoors abouth the same object with the two and tell the EXIF (details option in gallery) ? No need to post the pics, just the ISO, Shutter between the P10 and OP3.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No editing.
vicusbass said:
Unfortunately no. My OP3 had a lot of dust on the lens, inside (i had a lot of phones, this never happened with any...). So I sent it to the Service Center and... DHL lost it.
Anyway. I remember in auto mode OP3 was always 1/17 with ISO from 1000 to 3000+. Any movement turned into blur usually. Very annoying. Then they made some update and it was using 1/20 and lower ISO. Still blurry. Manual shots were slightly better, sometimes.
With P10, same living room, it does 1/17 to 1/25, ISO from 200 to 640. BUT no blur anymore, so most likely OP3 problem is the damn postprocessing. In manual mode, you can really catch the action. Outside, ISO goes to 50 in good light. Interesting, sometimes indoors the picture looks brighter than the reality in auto mode, but in a good way
Greens are slightly fake sometime.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many thanks! I am getting mine and getting rid of the OP 3T on Tuesday. The OP is a fast and nice phone, but a lacks a decent allrounder camera.
SebastianAlejandro said:
Can you explain a bit how is it: "the phone is benefitting from the light input of both the sensors. So the f:2.2 apeture is actually f:1.7." ? I'm interested in this phone but f:2.2 is more than the f:1.8 of P10 Plus. Anyway, i dont know how much can be the shutter speed in pro mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello Sebastian
This is a quote from the review on GSMArena:
"You'd argue that the f/2.2 aperture is quite dim by today's standards, to which Leica replies that you have two of those, so double the light. In effect that makes the aperture f/1.6 (2.2 divided by the square root of 2)."
http://www.gsmarena.com/huawei_mate_9-review-1520p8.php
Also the arpeture on the plus model is still better, but not much
http://m.androidcentral.com/huawei-p10-vs-p10-plus-camera-comparison
---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 PM ----------
Thanks for sharing your beautifull pictures. It realy helps me to decide to buy this phone.
KyleGriffiths said:
Loving my P10 Plus, The camera is amazing, Here are some of my photos.
http://imgur.com/a/bQIki
http://imgur.com/a/dNjy6
http://imgur.com/a/ftgPI
http://imgur.com/a/WCsBs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Love the photos. Have you used an older Huawei or Honor phone previously to the P10 Plus?
At the club, at the bar, or just in your mom's basement, nighttime is when you come out to play. Rate this thread to express how the Essential Phone's camera performs when no or low light is present. A higher rating indicates that the camera sensor "sees" lots of light in dim conditions, and that the resulting photos have minimal noise. A higher rating also indicates that when the flash fires, the resulting photo is evenly-lit without any bright spots.
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!
Disappointing.
BonkersTheClown said:
Disappointing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even after all of the updates? Tried the google camera apk?
Yea, it's pretty bad compared to all other flagships or "flagship killers"
That's a bummer. I'm not surprised though, it's mostly been knocked for it's sub par camera.
It's weird cause some people seem to post some decent low light pics and others are pretty bad. Must just boil down to individual users.
The last camera update seems to have helped considerably with low light performance although the result isn't yet nearly as good as my Xperia Z5. This shot was taken just now in a room with a single 60w bulb - pretty good detail on a black dog on black comforter, not an easy subject. https://photos.app.goo.gl/VcVE3TbFmJm4DCCJ3
The camera during the day is fine and is equal to the pixel ported app. The camera at night is hit or miss. A dark room or darker room it will struggle bad. If it's a night shot out side and there are street lights or business signs there seems to be enough light for the camera to take a decent pic. I compared it to the honor 8. What I think the camera needs is a manual mode or something that allows you to control the lighting like the pixel camera. If it had that feature the camera would be good. It could also have a bit more sharpening too.
The video needs more light. Even with the pixel ported app the video is dark if you don't have good lighting, very grainy. Again a manual mode to control the light and more sharpening would do wonders for this camera.
I'm not saying it's great, but this was with the stock camera app taken from inside a car...
Xmas shots
Took a bunch last night. Where you see the same picture twice, is when I snapped the same pic with the Essential app and then the Gcam app. Strangely when I tried to up the brightness with the slider on the Essential app the results were terrible. Had to delete those pics. Point and shoot was the way to go.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
[/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG]
chiadrum said:
Took a bunch last night. Where you see the same picture twice, is when I snapped the same pic with the Essential app and then the Gcam app. Strangely when I tried to up the brightness with the slider on the Essential app the results were terrible. Had to delete those pics. Point and shoot was the way to go. "/>"/>"/>"/>"/>"/>"/>"/>"/>"/>"/>
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which gcam APK are you having success with? I'm noticing that the essential camera app is taking overall better point and shoot pictures in my day to day use.
rootnooby said:
Which gcam APK are you having success with? I'm noticing that the essential camera app is taking overall better point and shoot pictures in my day to day use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
MGC_5.1.016_7.0+C2 found on the Google Cam thread here on XDA. How has the Essential app been in low light? I just noticed one or 2 where the Gcam was clearly better. Haven't tried indoors yet. Seems like camera issues are overblown IMHO. So far this camera is fine for my needs. And you can always use an editor which pros do for best results. clarity and detail seems to be there.
I grabbed mine from Sprint so for 145 no complaints! Even at 499 I would love this phone. Best Android I have ever had by far.
So happy to be free of Scamsung. Had to fire it up to pull some files off and it was lag,stutter,jank, crash as always......
Stocka camera vs iPhone 7 Plus
I really think that the Ph1 has good camera un low ligth conditions. I compared the stock camera vs iPhone 7 Plus of mine wife.
chris1871 said:
I really think that the Ph1 has good camera un low ligth conditions. I compared the stock camera vs iPhone 7 Plus of mine wife.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So much noise and loss of detail though. Zoom in even slightly.
crixley said:
So much noise and loss of detail though. Zoom in even slightly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Take the same picture on an S9 or S9+ and you'll notice the difference
bogdi1988 said:
Take the same picture on an S9 or S9+ and you'll notice the difference
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Take the picture on a disposable camera and you'll notice the difference lol. Plus I feel like he used flash
crixley said:
Take the picture on a disposable camera and you'll notice the difference lol. Plus I feel like he used flash
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
??? Agreed!
crixley said:
So much noise and loss of detail though. Zoom in even slightly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The photos were taking whitout flash and before the stock camera update. The camera ins't perfect but for the half of price of the iPhone 7 Plus, it´s ok. During the day the result is better than the iPhone 7 Plus.
chris1871 said:
The photos were taking whitout flash and before the stock camera update. The camera ins't perfect but for the half of price of the iPhone 7 Plus, it´s ok. During the day the result is better than the iPhone 7 Plus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I owned a 7 plus and that is not true in the least. 7 plus blows it out of the water in every way camera wise.
The camera is alright at best. Regardless it is not a huge issue to me.
crixley said:
I owned a 7 plus and that is not true in the least. 7 plus blows it out of the water in every way camera wise.
The camera is alright at best. Regardless it is not a huge issue to me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the two phones and the photos with daylight have no differences, in low light iPhone 7 Plus is better.
Daylight (HDR mode)
PH1 https://photos.app.goo.gl/V2ZsqaqZVoGbRSec2
7 Plus https://photos.app.goo.gl/jLQKApR5SVq43JCM2
Low light (without flash and HDR mode)
PH1 https://photos.app.goo.gl/miNCaX88M1D3QAQ18
7 Plus https://photos.app.goo.gl/2GHam0XfcVUAVlsj2
The photos were taken at the same time and the result is PH1 equal to 7 Plus in daylight (I think better in PH1). In low light the result is different and 7 Plus is only better, not for much.
But show me a comparison of photos in the same conditions where the iPhone 7 Plus performs much better than the Essential PH1.