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We all want better battery life, no question, more than processor speed (some of us even underclock), resolution, 3D drivers; pretty much everything takes second place in our hearts to battery life. In response to that demand there are a lot of companies out there selling batteries for our phones either at the same mAh rating of the OEM (the one that came with the phone), a higher mAh rating but the battery's the same dimensions as the OEM and does not require a deeper cover and batteries that are both larger in capacity and physical size -- or so they allege. Usually these batteries are cheaper than the OEM's, mAh for mAh at least. By the way, mAh ratings, or milliamp hours, think of it in terms of the size of a gas tank you installed in your car. The higher the figure, the longer you can use your phone.
Got a Nexus One? Say hello to our sister thread! No wait, just go straight to forum.batteryboss.org right now, forget this thread.
There are battery threads all over XDA but only with vague data so I invested in equipment to rate the batteries myself, under the guidance of electrogeniuses as you can read in this thread, in order to tell you what to expect in addition to giving you figures such as how many amp hours you get on the dollar as maybe a cheap battery with an exaggerated or oddly defined rating is worth getting over an expensive and better one if you're on a budget. Not counting all the man hours that Telek, amit77 and I have put into coming up with the most reliable way to produce data, so far I've spent over $200 on different equipment to get to where we are now. By the way, OEM = made by the people who made the battery that came with your phone. I'm not asking you to donate yet or reimburse me for my troubles, rather I'd like you, the next time you buy a battery I haven't already tested, to mail it to me first so I can run a couple tests after which I will FedEx it to you at my expense. If that interests you, PM me. If you are a battery manufacturer or reseller and you stand by your claims and trust me to run legitimate tests on it that are consistent with every other test I publish in terms of procedure, PM me or post publicly.
The procedure:
I am using the Computerized Battery Analyzer III. The software which is somewhat sophisticated plots out milliamp hours (mAh) burnt over the descent of voltage from 4.14V to 3.5V which we have determined to be the level of voltage in the battery at which point the phone decides to stop charging itself and decides it's time to turn itself off because it's too low on juice. The CBA software plots out data in graphs, PDFs, CSVs, the whole deal. Looks a little like this:
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In order to produce the best real-world information, numbers that are relevant to you and not just to academics, I charge the batteries with the phone as you do until the phone decides the battery is charged which for the Rhodium/Touch Pro2/Tilt 2 is 4.14 volts regardless of capacity rating. I hook the batteries up to the CBA which is plugged into my computer. With the software that came with the CBA I have the CBA test the batteries at 250mA, a current in the neighborhood of what the average user would average were he to do his thing (including having push-mail fired up with the screen on bright, downloading and browsing rss feeds, the occasional call, bubblebreaker etc) without interruption. To get a better idea of what kind of current you're using when doing various things use the attached acbPowerMeter software. I'm not Geraldo Rivera out to get the third party guys that exaggerate their numbers a little bit nor am I here to rewrite Wikipedia's take on capacity calculation industry standards. If you're a manufacturer or a battery company sympathizer and want to break my balls about voltage cutoffs, read this simple explanation which I feel sums up our position well. The point, in short, of all of this is to supply you with information that will help you choose which battery to buy.
Doug Simmons
Test results and other information.
This table is a hotlinked image to data on the mother site of this, batteryboss.org on which the actual links work. Hit refresh if you've been here before in case your browser cached the image of the table.
Updates:
August 7th: First did a dry run then I the AMZER 1800mAh for the EVO. So far it's in first place for being the biggest ripoff on the gallon. First place.
August 5th: Received Carl's AMZER 1800mAh for EVO, doing a dry run discharge now, hopefully get some data for you tomorrow morning.
July 28th: Finished Carl's Seidio 3500mAh for EVO 4G. Seems the Seidios all rate at 81% of their claim.
July 6th: Completed round one of EVO stock (John Doward). Got the coveted Amzer 1800 and a Seidio 3500, both EVO, en route thanks to Carl Willi.
June 12th: Completed first run of a Mugen 3200mAh for the Hero. Both disappointing and unsurprising. Most cost ineffective battery I've tested.
June 11th: Jasper and Dan's batteries on the way back to them. Thanks again. Hey, Mugen 3200 for Hero and EVO 4G stock on their way! Another update, just received that Mugen 3200, charging now.
June 10th: Completed testing for a no name Hero battery and the stock Incredible battery with the EVO 4G stock on its way. Nice. Returning those batteries to my man Dan and my other man Jasper.
June 9th: Seems a seller I linked may be committing fraud. Please read.
June 7th: First test complete of an oversized no name Hero battery, second one in progress.
April 26th: Got some press. And a little more.
April 15th: Hoo-F'ing-ray, we have a winner, Wade's HTC 2150mAh clocks in exactly at 2150! high five, HTC!
April 14th: Taking the HTC 2150mAh for a spin right now. Finally! Thank you Deathmonkey!April 12th: Rotohammer's Seidio 1600mAh for the N1 has arrived, charging. Exact dimensions as OEM, wish I had a scale.
April 9th: In a continued effort to outdo himself Rotohammer just ordered a 2400mAh-rated Cameron Sino, on its way to me. Lucky I got his attention. Extremely helpful. Thanks.
April 8th: N1 Seidio 1600mAh should show up today, thanks to Rotohammer.
April 3rd: Finished N1 Seidio 3200mAh, five runs. Learned that it's rated slightly more honestly than Mugen (not saying much) but is the most expensive battery per tested amp hour. Still, highest capacity. I got a new and fast and really badass server and now have a our own forum which you can fire up at forum.batteryboss.org. Finished the new Andida for the TP2, pretty weak, but for some of you the price may be right.
March 30th: Completed dry run of a Seidio 3200mAh for the N1. Not fantastic but Seidio has taken the lead against Mugen in honesty.
March 29th: Mugen "engineer" responds (see table). Rotohammer's Seidio arrived, charging now baby, yeah! Should be very interesting. Thanks Roto.
March 27th: Shawn's OEM a fake (but a well performing fake). Activity building in the Nexus One thread. Mugen sent me an exchange for Jeremy's and it sucks even more.
March 20th: Just ran the first test of the Nexus One's OEM, not bad.
March 18th: Just ordered a Google Nexus One. I got an extra battery so the first thing I'm using this for is to prepare a battery for testing. Need to figure out if it has different voltage cutoffs, need to figure out how to present the data and what to do with my site, .. hmmm.
March 16th: Mugen wants me to send me another battery to test, I agreed and mailed them back Jeremy's battery. Also mailed Sean/Telek his OEM 1500mAh. Thank you both fellas. Also DeathmonkeyGTX offered to sponsor a test of the HTC 2150mAh -- thank you!
March 13th: Finished no name #2 3600mAh (2466mAh ). In search of voltage cutoffs for Touch Pro/Fuze, please help.
March 12th: Mugen has expressed interest in sending me another battery to test, I expressed willingness. And to you I express curiosity into which device to expand the testing.
March 8th:Finished round two of no name #2 and fake OEM #2. Waiting on another ebay OEM to verify authenticity and a fresh Andida courtesy of my main man Shawn Martell.
March 7th:Added intriguing head to head chart matches.
March 6th:Completed a few more including fresh standard legit OEM, also discovered two counterfeits.
March 2nd: Completed no name #1, cheapest per mAh so far. Dropped Jason's battery off in the mail as promised.
Feb 28th: Completed tests of the Seidio, mailing it to jasonweaver.
Feb 27th: Just received Seidio 1750mAh from jasonweaver in addition to 1500mAh no name ebay cheapo. Nice.
Feb 27th: Mugen 1800mAh testing completed, table updated. Thank you very much jcr916 who bought the battery and had it shipped to me, now I'm going to mail it to him.
Feb 22nd: Thank you jasonweaver and jcr916 who are hooking me up with a barely-used Seidio and a brand new Mugen 1800mAh respectively. Those test results should be interesting as from what I've gathered those two brands have the best reputation and are priced accordingly so let's see if they deserve it.
Telek and I just laid down some dough for five more batteries this weekend. So I'll have a lot of testing to do shortly. Stay tuned for the results!
Batteries I would like to test next so PM me if you want to help. New and used batteries welcome.
AT&T/HTC 2150mAh Pricey worth it. Really want to test this one. *En route*
HTC 2150mAh - Same model as AT&T but cheaper, doesn't come with door. *En route (same battery)*
Cameron Sino - Found five favorable/neutral reports.
A new Seidio 1750mAh - Tested a used one already but need data on a fresh battery.
Google Froogle search for more.
Tips and other reflections:
AT&T people, beware that if you order a battery that requires a deeper back cover but is for the Touch Pro2 and not the AT&T Tilt 2 that the cover may not have a hole for the PTT button nor may it latch on. Maybe you can burn one through with a hot screwdriver or you could just crazy glue. Beware of the usual dangers of ebay obviously, only use sellers with high ratings and consider buying straight from the company's website or Amazon or a name you've heard of. I have found over two counterfeits from sellers with high ratings. Read your phone's warranty before using a third party battery. Get the return policy before you buy. If you do get burnt with a counterfeit OEM, immediately give negative feedback using language like "counterfeit" and email the seller requesting both immediate restitution and that they remove their listings of that particular battery or at the least any reference in the listing to the battery being either an OEM or giving an OEM-like serial number, anything misleading, and in return offer to neutralize negative feedback. Reporting fraud to ebay is up to you but I would take those steps first. It's a longshot but the information we really want from the dealer is their supplier but so far I haven't been able to get any of them to cough that information up. If you're not sure if the thing's a counterfeit and want to find out, send it to me to test.
Testing hardware:
I am using the West Mountain Radio CBA III (Computerized Battery Analyzer) which you can buy along with some toys from these guys for $149. I bought something else from them, didn't like it and they offered to shave the cost of the thing I didn't want off the price of the CBA III without even asking me to return it. Good people. The CBA III is the most accurate and reliable device we could find for these testing purposes and we spent many hours arriving at the final testing procedure. No corners cut. There is no indication whatsoever that the results it's produced are inaccurate, certainly not relative to each other given its consistency. All testing procedures were identical including the current of 250mA, starting voltage and bottom cutoff (4.14V and 3.5V respectively, the top and bottom cutoffs of the Touch Pro2, which I use to charge the batteries with original HTC wall charger). The 250mA current may be a little high and won't produce as flattering a result versus a 100mA current, but it's both a normal current we burn when we're doing stuff on the phone, it keeps each of the three tests inside six hours usually and most importantly we use that current on every single test of every single battery so this is a standardized test. Finally the OEMs get 95% of their claimed rating on this current so we believe that that current is the sweet spot to supply you with information to use to buy your next battery.
Doug Simmons
Excellent thread - although from my experience with LiIon devices:
- the device itself typically has poor ability to determine battery usage
- you really need an actual external ammeter to monitor usage
With payment terminals that I used to work on the external ammeter (which I assume was accurate) was up to 15% off what the terminal itself reported - and wasn't consistent depending on the amount of current draw. The ability for the batteries themselves to accurately report their % remaning was also highly inaccurate and can only be used as a guideline. YMMV.
Thanks .. though you may realize this, my main interest is not in current at a given point but in total consumption from a full charge to when it dies. You're saying in order to get a definitive result, solid enough to recommend one thing over another, I need such a device to get beyond bad indications and confounding variables? Or with a difference between a few hundred mAhs over a few trials sound like enough to determine a clear winner, but ideally have an ammeter? Any cheap ammeters that not only clock the current but plot it down over time or do whatever it takes to yield the total? Not too familiar with these things, just a quick glance at wikipedia.
Well honestly I have no idea how either the battery or the TP2 fares for current reading.
I think you'd have to do a benchmark - find some way of running the same task on the TP2 that will use the same amount of battery power and run it a few times from a full battery charge. See if the mAh readings are consistent. My guess, however, is that the readings are going to be quite different which will be a combination of the battery AND reporting method. Even using an external battery reconditioner we'd get +/- 10% on successive runs with the same battery. The only way you could tell that the reconditioner was working was the batteries would go from 30 mins runtime to 90 mins after reconditioning.
Back when I did my testing I used a custom designed unit - had a arm7 microcontroller and threw a resistor in series and constantly monitored the voltage drop to determine current usage and plotted it that way. Most multimeters that you can hook up to your computer don't have high enough sampling rates or are too expensive.
how the frak do you delete messages? duplicate post...
Telek said:
how the frak do you delete messages? duplicate post...
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dupe all you want, need this thing bumped.. working hard on it, getting some good info together.
As Telek said an external test is the only reliable way to get accurate results. The best way to do this to apply the same resistive drain to all of the batteries and charging them all with the same charger. A .5c drain should be safe enough to drain in a reasonable amount of time with out over heating the battery.
The main factor we need to know as far as the device is concerned is what the cutoff voltage is set at. LI-ion batteries can be drained down to less the 3v safely and most good ones have protection circuits that cut them off above 2.7v. None of that will matter if HTC has the device set to cutoff at 3.2v or higher.
Once the cutoff V is known then you time the drain from full charge to C/O.
I've done a lot of battery pack building and maintaining in radio controlled hobby's. With out having access to the right equipment this is going to be a daunting task and quite possibly more expensive than buying a few batteries. Hopefully the right person will see this thread and will step up to do the testing.
anit77 said:
As Telek said an external test is the only reliable way to get accurate results. The best way to do this to apply the same resistive drain to all of the batteries and charging them all with the same charger. A .5c drain should be safe enough to drain in a reasonable amount of time with out over heating the battery.
The main factor we need to know as far as the device is concerned is what the cutoff voltage is set at. LI-ion batteries can be drained down to less the 3v safely and most good ones have protection circuits that cut them off above 2.7v. None of that will matter if HTC has the device set to cutoff at 3.2v or higher.
Once the cutoff V is known then you time the drain from full charge to C/O.
I've done a lot of battery pack building and maintaining in radio controlled hobby's. With out having access to the right equipment this is going to be a daunting task and quite possibly more expensive than buying a few batteries. Hopefully the right person will see this thread and will step up to do the testing.
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Okay well in the interests of making this thread epically informative I am almost willing to buy myself an ammeter. Could you please recommend one that is both cheap and capable of getting the job done for something smaller than a car battery and a device with such settings to fine-tune? Something that I can rig up to the battery's contacts which are so thinly spaced together without a soldering iron? Here's a list...
Well for starters do you want to test the phone + battery or just the battery?
Testing the battery alone will be a LOT easier - in fact a general test can be done with just a heavy duty resistor and a voltmeter. Watch how long it takes the battery to go from full charge to C/O and you've got your mAh rating. I'd recommend this as it's easy and cheap.
If you want to check actual phone usage time and compare it to whatever reading you get via software you'll need to build a little rig that allows you to place the battery externally with leads running to the battery contacts in the phone. That part is not as hard as it sounds. However what that you're going to need some sort of way of tracking the current flow with high precision and high frequency. If you're any good with microcontrollers that can be done easily, otherwise I'm not sure. I'll check and see if I can find anything that would qualify.
Telek said:
Well for starters do you want to test the phone + battery or just the battery? Testing the battery alone will be a LOT easier - in fact a general test can be done with just a heavy duty resistor and a voltmeter. Watch how long it takes the battery to go from full charge to C/O and you've got your mAh rating. I'd recommend this as it's easy and cheap.
If you want to check actual phone usage time and compare it to whatever reading you get via software you'll need to build a little rig that allows you to place the battery externally with leads running to the battery contacts in the phone. That part is not as hard as it sounds. However what that you're going to need some sort of way of tracking the current flow with high precision and high frequency. If you're any good with microcontrollers that can be done easily, otherwise I'm not sure. I'll check and see if I can find anything that would qualify.
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C'mon man, obviously I want the easier way that satisfactorily satisfies what I want to know without crazy wiring and microcontrollers. Just want to know how many milliamp hours these two suckers and any other batteries I might get along the way compare to each other, a drag race. I'll leave that other stuff to the guys from Popular Mechanics.
We also need to consider the resolution needed for such a device.
For example a 5.0V ADC (providing 0-5V range) at 16-bit resolution for a current shunt designed to provide a 50mV drop at 1A is going to give you 1.53mA resolution (5V 16-bit = 0.0763mV resolution; 0-50mV range = 655 binary range = 1.53mA range). Conveniently a 3.3V range for the ADC gives almost exactly 1mA resolution which is perfect.
However I can't find any cheap ready-to-go data loggers with that resolution and range.
Now if you wanted to make the setup a little more complicated and toss a simple op-amp into there you could probably get away with something like this:
http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di194rs.htm
$25 plus a few bucks to build a simple op-amp circuit (check out http://www.chem.uoa.gr/Applets/AppletOpAmps/Appl_OpAmps2.html with values 1kO and 2000kO V1=0.005V and V2=0) use the computer PSU to provide +/- 12V to the amp will give you ~ +/- 10V operational range (perfect for the data logger) and you'll get 2mA resolution with 240Hz sampling - far from perfect but sufficient to actually do some decent measurements of actual current draw from the phone. Log both the shunt resistor voltage drop through the op-amp and the raw battery voltage and you've got a nice little power monitor that can give you detailed measurements of how much power every little thing in your phone takes.
Ok so grab yourself one of these:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=HPC1210JCT-ND
Or any generic 10 ohm resistor capable of dissipating at least 5W (wire-wound will work). Ask at your local electronics shop and they can probably help you. Should cost less than $20 including the multimeter.
It'll draw about 700mA and dissipate about 5W (so it'll get hot, should put a small fan on it) and should dissipate your battery in about 2 hours. Combine with a voltmeter where you write the measurements down at least every couple of minutes and that will allow you to plot the voltage drop curve and calculate the mAh rating of the battery.
Well if you can come up with what you think the right standardized procedures and various levels of this and that, again standardized, to use to test multiple batteries from multiple manufacturers of varying mAh claims (but presumably of the same voltage?) just to get a total mAh versus that of the OEM, and then tell me which device to buy to make that happen, I could contact these various companies, tell them to send me their superbattery for me to test accurately to see if they are legit and, in exchange for sending me the battery, I'll list the results on either of my sites which are fairly trafficked, enough for a company to want to give away a battery if it meant getting their claims verified in front of an audience thirsty for milliamp hours.
You see where I'm going with this?
Telek said:
Ok so grab yourself one of these:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=HPC1210JCT-ND
Or any generic 10 ohm resistor capable of dissipating at least 5W (wire-wound will work). Ask at your local electronics shop and they can probably help you. Should cost less than $20 including the multimeter.
It'll draw about 700mA and dissipate about 5W (so it'll get hot, should put a small fan on it) and should dissipate your battery in about 2 hours. Combine with a voltmeter where you write the measurements down at least every couple of minutes and that will allow you to plot the voltage drop curve and calculate the mAh rating of the battery.
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I've got a Radio Shack down the block. But 700mA is maybe unnecessarily/excessively strong -- firstly because running batteries hot and heavy wears them out over time so if I keep testing new batteries against one oem .. ahh nevermind i guess that wouldn't batter but normal usage is between 30-400mA. How many ohms might yield roughly 250, 300mA? Think I'd get lucky at RatShack?
Running batteries at 1/2 their capacity is generally pretty safe for full discharge - so a 1500mAh battery discharging at 700mA should be fine - not really considered "hot & heavy".
You could go 20 ohm (2.5W discharge 350mA) and monitor over 4-5 hours then, just means more work for you since you're going to need to record the voltage over time.
I somehow doubt that RadioShack would carry any sort of resistors like this, but a general purpose electronics hobby shop should.
Thanks you very much with this test. Very instructive.
A question:
What is the best PocketPC software for mesuring mAh. I've try AbcPower, but I don't think it's very accurate when charging. normally, 500mA via PC USB.
powerguard
I believe it's powerguard which is frickin' awesome for all things battery-related (.. born on xda) but I can't get the consumption thing to tally which doesn't really help this project. That's either because the software doesn't like our phone or because the shareware is crippled not to do that among some other things. Other than this powerguard and abcpowermeter, I am unaware of any other WinMo app that will count up the consumption. So I sent the guy some euros (five, he asked for three) to get a registration file hoping that will do the trick but man he went out of his way to make it a pain in the balls to register this thing. Hope he checks his email soon because I want this thing unleashed.
By the way for those of you living in 10% increment land on your battery meters, grab Chainfire's 1% battery driver for Euro and apparently AT&T Touch Pro2s (gsm?) or Quentin-'s 1% driver for Tmo, Sprint and Verizon (I guess any cdma tp2). After you install either of those you'd better check your battery drain to make sure you didn't install the wrong one (you can tell if you notice your phone is using a lot more juice). If you did, not to worry, they are uninstallable.
Doug
anit77 said:
Hopefully the right person will see this thread and will step up to do the testing.
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I want to be that guy. I'm willing to put the time, money and patience into it. Only snag is is that I'm not a physicist/electrical engineer like you two.
What I want to set out to do here is have a means of performing standardized testing with the same equipment with the same settings with me doing the same things (including how frequently I watch it and what math I do at the end) each time in order to get true and consistently true mAh until c/o ratings, true enough to satisfy third party battery companies/dealers (and people who actually read and use what I post) that I've got a fair and trustworthy procedure to see if their batteries live up to their claims, posting tables of batteries, mAh, cost of the battery and cost per mAh, something like that, both here and on my website for people to read and copy to their own sites and forum threads.
I reread your comments a couple more times. What I guess I need to do is find out what the cutoff voltage is for this phone (do I do that by eyeballing the mV readings on this powerguard software until the phone clicks off or is additional equipment necessary?). Then I need to get myself this data logger -- nope, just a 10 ohm resistor and maybe this voltmeter or perhaps something like this would make this simpler? What's my shopping cart?
Once I have some setup like that I fully discharge a battery then charge it up with the phone off then connect it both to the resistor and the voltmeter, plot out the readings every three minutes until it hits the voltage cutoff point, repeat X amount of times, then crank out some math to figure out a total mAh reading from start to cutoff point (we'll discuss that later...) and finally I'm good? Something like that? How am I doing?
Just hit me with the shopping cart and I'll get that out of the way and read this while it all ships then check back here.
The goal is to generate and disseminate valuable information on something very mysterious and dubious. People who make these things know we have no idea how to do what we're fixin' to do in this thread so why not claim wild ratings for the same dimensions and get more people to buy our stuff? Let's tell 'em why and maybe score some free batteries along the way for our troubles.
This looks like it'd be perfect. but it's $120. You be able to test most any battery too. There's tons of this type stuff in R/C and electronics hobby sites. It just doing the searching needed to find what your looking for.
I'd say make a new thread for taking donations to buy one. PM a mod or Flar and ask where to post it or if they'll put links to the thread in some of the sub forums and you'd get people with other phone that'd be interested too. Could be a way to make some extra cash as well. If you don't want to deal with a progect of this size I'm sure you'd be able to find someone who is.
I've had my nexus 6p for just over a year now, never rooted and always kept up to date and currently running N4F26I. Recently I discovered the app AccuBattery which estimates the current capacity of the battery as it is charged (I don't know how accurate this is, as of writing it is based off of 88 charging sessions. Also to note that according to the app I average about 2 wear cycles per day). The estimated capacity this reports is approximately 2,300 mAh or roughly 68% of the originally designed capacity. My question is this: for having the device just over a year, is that considered a reasonable loss in capacity? Anyone else that has had the device for a similar period of time have any comments?
Further, is it unreasonable to expect the Nexus Protect program to replace the battery whether free or with a deductible?
Have you tried looking at battery degradation with a previous phone or looked at the average rate?
Not saying that it is, it could be average and considered wear and tear from the manufacturer's standpoint. Wouldn't hurt to call and ask if you find out it's significantly worse than expected.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
ez4nick said:
I've had my nexus 6p for just over a year now, never rooted and always kept up to date and currently running N4F26I. Recently I discovered the app AccuBattery which estimates the current capacity of the battery as it is charged (I don't know how accurate this is, as of writing it is based off of 88 charging sessions. Also to note that according to the app I average about 2 wear cycles per day). The estimated capacity this reports is approximately 2,300 mAh or roughly 68% of the originally designed capacity. My question is this: for having the device just over a year, is that considered a reasonable loss in capacity? Anyone else that has had the device for a similar period of time have any comments?
Further, is it unreasonable to expect the Nexus Protect program to replace the battery whether free or with a deductible?
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I think that app bases it off of average battery life in some way. I get 6.5 to about 7 hours SOT per charge and after using that app and a couple charge cycles, it said my estimated battery capacity was like 3625mah, which is higher then the 3450mah that is the original capacity. My 6P is 11 months old. I don't really trust that app in that sense. I do a lot to condition and cycle my battery properly to get as little diminished capacity as possible. I can't believe you can increase capacity.
The way you tell is your usage. When you got the phone how much did the battery last? At this point does it last 30% or 35% less then it was before? If you were getting say 5 hours of SOT before are you getting less then 3.5 hours now? I mean on average that is.
richii0207 said:
Have you tried looking at battery degradation with a previous phone or looked at the average rate?
Not saying that it is, it could be average and considered wear and tear from the manufacturer's standpoint. Wouldn't hurt to call and ask if you find out it's significantly worse than expected.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Unfortunately I don't have any previous phones to see this on, I only have a roughly 2 year old Nexus 9 which estimates about 85% remaining capacity which I tend to believe as it is used infrequently compared to my phone. Perhaps I will reach out to Huawei for their opinion.
ez4nick said:
Further, is it unreasonable to expect the Nexus Protect program to replace the battery whether free or with a deductible?
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If you do have active coverage through Nexus Protect then call them and they will likely be lenient on a defective battery. One year is not reasonable time for a battery to remain healthy. Based on your 68% battery capacity and charge cycles per day, you need a new battery or a replacement phone. One thing for sure is it will not get better from here. You didn't mention whether you have pursued a warranty replacement or not. You didn't mention at what percentage of battery left the phone dies. My advice would be to work the warranty the best you can, ASAP.
Eric214 said:
I think that app bases it off of average battery life in some way. I get 6.5 to about 7 hours SOT per charge and after using that app and a couple charge cycles, it said my estimated battery capacity was like 3625mah, which is higher then the 3450mah that is the original capacity. My 6P is 11 months old. I don't really trust that app in that sense. I do a lot to condition and cycle my battery properly to get as little diminished capacity as possible. I can't believe you can increase capacity.
The way you tell is your usage. When you got the phone how much did the battery last? At this point does it last 30% or 35% less then it was before? If you were getting say 5 hours of SOT before are you getting less then 3.5 hours now? I mean on average that is.
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I can definitely say that my battery life now is much less than 30-35% of what it originally was. Now, I cannot get more than 2.5-3 hours of SOT per charge. Standby time is excellent, but with active use and standby I generally get 6-7 hours total use out of a full charge.
v12xke said:
If you do have active coverage through Nexus Protect then call them and they will likely be lenient on a defective battery. One year is not reasonable time for a battery to remain healthy. Based on your 68% battery capacity and charge cycles per day, you need a new battery or a replacement phone. One thing for sure is it will not get better from here. You didn't mention whether you have pursued a warranty replacement or not. You didn't mention at what percentage of battery left the phone dies. My advice would be to work the warranty the best you can, ASAP.
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I do have the Nexus Protect coverage and I just spoke with a representative who said replacing the battery is something they cannot do, and if I did get a replacement device there is no guarantee it would be a new device this depends on the stock google has apparently. For the $79 deductible that seems like too much of a risk in my opinion.
OK, but once a battery starts degrading that much, it will just continue to do so until it dies. $80 for cross shipping a refurb and letting you transfer your data over first is about as good as it gets. I'd certainly back up everything now if you haven't already. Best of luck.
The $79 deductible only applies to accidental damage, not to electrical or mechanical defects.
Right I would contact google again. You can use the support tab in settings to do so. They are well aware of the battery issue. You shouldn't have to deal with an almost dead battery after a year. You won't get a brand new phone (they don't exist any more). They will send a refurbished unit even if it is out of warranty. They may try to shuffle you off to Project FI, but just keep trying. I just got one this week that is in mint condition. I have only 2 charging cycles with Accubattery so far but battery health is promising at 96% and estimated capacity of 3313 mAh. Got 5+ hours SOT on the first charge. Need to get some more cycles in but looks to be a big improvement here.
http://techlife.samsung.com/tips-keep-smartphone-charged-1059.html
Charge Regularly
To get the most out of your smartphone's battery, you'll need to charge it properly. Most smartphones have a lithium-ion battery that lives longer when charged regularly. Unlike the nickel batteries used in older phones, lithium-ion batteries do best when kept above a 50 percent charge. Repeatedly allowing the battery to drain fully may shorten its life and decrease its overall capacity. If this happens, you'll need to charge the battery more frequently and it may last only a few hours before needing a charge, for example.
Your battery will also perform better if you don't let it charge to 100 percent, so take it off the charger at about 80 to 90 percent capacity. Leaving the phone connected to the charger when the phone is completely charged may lower battery life if you do it repeatedly.
Thanks [emoji120]
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This is the ultimate battery charging explanation and guide:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a15731/best-way-to-keep-li-ion-batteries-charged/
I always follow this. Installing AccuBattery app will help you with this.
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Wow I did not know any of this. I will be following this thanks for sharing.
how long is the battery lasting if you are only going down to 50 and up to 90?
Gees! Below 50% really. I would tend to agree somewhat. I never let my phone fall below 20% and usually charge until 97% more or less. But 90-50. I don't want to be walking around with a battery back. I need my phone to last all day and 40% of the battery just won't cut it.
Xuck that !! I have a 3000mah battery for a reason if it goes then it goes ill most likely have another phone by then.Not gonna sit here to nickel and dime my usage that's not why I got this phone .
GM makes the Li batteries last in the volt and bolt 10 years by not letting the car drain the batteries more than 2/3rds down, leaving the batteries at 1/3rd charge. Tesla does it too.
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Nah, I don't own my phones for more than a year so this doesn't apply to me. I'd rather keep using it from 100-1 just like I've been doing for years. I wouldn't be able to stand only getting an hour of use and charging it 3 times a day.
This battery information applies to all devices that use this type of battery be they Samsung or other brands. Its not just the Note 8. It applies equally to your Oral-B tooth brush! :laugh:
Ryland
this is a good habit to charge often at 50%. i usually let the battery run down to like 20% or less then charge. then when i have to go somewhere and i cant play with my phone anymore cus i worry i going to run down the battery.
Question are the "300-2500" charge cycles just as it says? I mean if I put it on the charger in the car for a 10 minute drive is that a cycle along with an overnight charge? If it is we should really only be putting it on the charger from the 50-90% with a guaranteed fast charge time of at least 30+mins to get the maximum charge cycles for the lifespan?
markwebb said:
This is the ultimate battery charging explanation and guide:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a15731/best-way-to-keep-li-ion-batteries-charged/
I always follow this. Installing AccuBattery app will help you with this.
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This was a really well written down to earth article about battery care. Thank you. I still have friends, family, and coworkers that insist on running their batteries to 0%. I can't convince them otherwise. Although my batteries degrade, it's never been anything easy shattering. Just notice an hour or two shaved of over a couple years life. As the article states, there is no way around this and I won't be a slave to my battery. In that note, I top off when I can.
My battery on my old phone tended to get to around the 40% at the end fo the work day, then I'd plug it in usually around the 20-30% and it still lasted 2+ years 'til I got a new battery. Now it's about 50% at the end of the day. But with Fast Charge, what do they expect people to do, plug it in for an hour, then unplug it, then go to sleep, wake up with 60% battery, go to work and then charge it for an hour when you get there?
The lie of requiring a non replaceable battery for water proofing is also an issue. Forced obsolescence sucks....
slaapliedje said:
The lie of requiring a non replaceable battery for water proofing is also an issue. Forced obsolescence sucks....
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Too black and white.
It is possible to offer some water resistance to a mobile that has a removable battery, S5 for eg.
In general such water resistance is small and is often abused by the owner causing problems. Hardly any owner reads the instruction manual that outlines what ones device can and cannot do, what the IP rating means in REAL terms etc
"Forced obsolescence" mmmmm, a battery can be changed in the Note 8. I understand your point though.
Ryland
this has been around for years. Doesn't make it very convenient to use nothing below 50%! I'd need at least an 8000 mh battery!! Therefore Samsung IS using too small a batteries in its top of the range device!
bonerp said:
this guff has been around for years. Doesn't make it very convenient to use nothing below 50%! I'd need at least an 8000 mh battery!! Therefore Samsung IS using too smaller batteries in its top of the range device!
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Totaly agree......
We then have to ask 'ourselves' WHY! Who forced Mobile brands to make anorexic devices? WE DID. We wanted thin small large wide slim ...........we got it and now pay the price.
I personally don't care if the device is thicker with a larger battery, for me its not a problem. For so many size was a major issue so the manufacture's listened and came up with these ultra thin mobiles that are vulnerable to dropping and breaking etc. off topic.
I find it totally bizarre that we spend mega bucks on such devices only to find we are educated to use them on software that reduces said mobile to the performance of a phone costing 100€! I may add many posters where disappointed when the Note 8 didn't have a 4k screen! Can you imagine the battery issues then?
Now we read this Samsung article and find we would need to charge our mobile several times a day as well as run it on a vastly reduced software programme. In reality that article is saying the battery is only operating efficiently at 40% of its total capacity before we start to degrade its life! Its all so absurd. What are we doing here folks?
Only one answer to this, either drop the performance OR vastly improve battery technology and fast.
Ryland
I'm not sure how usefull this is for the new samsung phones though, as the release of the S8 Samsung improved the battery.
Samsung Mobile R&D VP Bookeun Oh told me, "I focused on maintaining the durability of the battery over the long term, over hundreds of charging cycles. For example, after approximately six months of normal usage, the battery in the S8 will outperform previous batteries. While most batteries hold about 80 percent of their charge after two years in usual cases, this battery should be capable of 95 percent of its original capacity."
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PC mag S8 review
I am sorry but i will use my phone all day and charge overnight. If you can't use past 50% what is the point???? My pixel xl i have had since day 1 and use all day everyday and charge overnight and noticed no real decrease in battery life except a little change with oreo!
Outdated info and not necessary.
0% on your device is still considerably above what is considered the bottom line cell voltage before excessive discharge detrimental affects capacity.
A lot of engineering has gone into these devices to squeeze every possible mAh out of the packs, have a decent life expectancy AND operate safely. There is no need to strive for certain numbers and forcibly change your usage habits. There may or may not be a demonstrably better result long term but honestly is it worth worrying about?
And for removable packs...
Forget it. That's a thing of the past.
If devices had battery life like the Skyrocket, sure I see the NEED for a swappable pack.
But not now.
Having a sealed device makes it feel solid and keeps intrusion protection intact.
Holding an older device in hand, it seems almost laughable today. It creaks and groans and feels super cheap in comparison like some dollar store toy!
Hi,
I love the speed this charges … up 12% in the time it took me to make a coffee but that got me thinking...
Is it safe for the longevity of the battery to use whenever its time to charge or your phone or should you really only be using it in them times you really need a fast charge and keep a puny 2a 5/9v for them longer periods, such as overnight
EDIT: and now that's about 40% and the charger is pretty toasty, battery warm to touch also
Let be any Lithium batteries, slow is generally safe and will guarantee longevity of battery. 40W is a Huawei's throw in the face answer to OnePlus, that's it. So I would suggest 5V-2A to be good. 500mA laptop output is safest in my opinion, slow yet tension free.
rakesh2002 said:
Let be any Lithium batteries, slow is generally safe and will guarantee longevity of battery. 40W is a Huawei's throw in the face answer to OnePlus, that's it. So I would suggest 5V-2A to be good. 500mA laptop output is safest in my opinion, slow yet tension free.
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But 500mAh from laptop is not stable and clean enough. It should be high quality charger
No, of course it's not safe to use it often. I'd limit it to once a year, personally.
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If it was risky, Huawei wouldn't offer it, particularly after the Note 8 disaster.
David Horn said:
No, of course it's not safe to use it often. I'd limit it to once a year, personally.
[/sarcasm]
If it was risky, Huawei wouldn't offer it, particularly after the Note 8 disaster.
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Well Dave, I said for its longevity... not is is at risk of catching fire like the Note 7.... and that was do to with their faulty batteries and not their chargers
yeah it would degrade the battery faster than a slow charger if you use it daily and keep the phone for 2 years you might notice it. I'd suggest a slow wireless charger for overnight charging (it also causes more heat that plugging it to a cable doing 5V and 0.5-1A but it is pretty convenient to just put it in the pad right before going to sleep and in the morning just pick it up with one hand) and 40W for fast boost when you need them
I think they've done their homeworks and it's safe to use for longevity. Looking at numbers in AccuBattrry, it charges as fast as 7000mah at first but once it gets around 90%, it slows down to like 500-1000mah (note I didn't check this over and over thoughrouly) to help battery longetivity.
That said, I don't think anybody here can often anything more than a personal opinion. Unless we can find a technical document from Huawei regarding this, I'd say nobody knows and we'll see in a year or two...
That said, the phone battery is supposed to be 4200mah but so far AccuBattery always reports 4000mah after each charge (it used to be accurate on my old s8).
Wonder if I'm the only one? Or is Huawei 100% charge actually stopping at 4000mah and saving the last 200mah for better longevity so it takes more months or years before it feels like the battery lasts less time?
I'm sure they know what they are doing. If you look into how batteries work (any batteries, the same rules apply to your car battery) they can be fast charged without harming them up to a certain percentage. After that, trying to cram the juice in reduces longevity. This is all well understood at this point, and they wouldn't ship the phones with the 40W charger if it meant a chance of evidence coming out that this harmed the capacity or longevity (number of charge cycles) anytime soon. At max charging speed the phone barely gets warm, which was always a tell-tale sign of overcharging.
On a side note, the 2013 Nexus 7 (which had a terribly underpowered SOC/battery for the screen) was so terrible at drinking the battery that custom firmwares gave you the option to only charge the battery to 95%. Note that this has nothing to do with charging rate, or any of that - simply a cap on that last 5%. The result of this was an estimated SEVEN TIMES bigger amount of charge cycles for the battery. In other words, even when you trickle charge a battery for that last few precious percent, you are doing damage - that is inherent in the design of all batteries.
The efficiency of this Kirin 980 is *ridiculous*. They said that the battery would last 2 full days. They didn't mean it *could* last 2 full days, they meant it *will* last 2 full days - even under fairly heavy usage. It is almost impossible to believe how advanced power consumption efficiency has become, especially given that this is an 8 core (on the main 'CPU') fab capable of performing 5 TRILLION floating point operations per second. I don't think people realize the scope of that number - it makes an S9 looks like an 8 bit Nintendo by comparison. Like the A12 Bionic, it is nearly 10 times the raw processing power of the iPhone X, which was already handily kicking in the ribs of any other phone by orders of magnitude.
Fellow Note 8 users, I recently got to replace my 1.5 yr old battery with a new bigger capacity one. 3500mah from Polarcell... Once I get a few charge cycles going with this one I'll post results!
I had 255 charge cycles on the old one and fg_asoc was 92, fullcapnom 2890.
Evidently as I'm a very curious person, I had to test the capacity of the old battery with a high tech hobby charger/discharger from Junsi, the 4010 DUO. As it stands out, fully charging the battery to 4.4V and then doing a deep discharge to 3V netted me 3273mAh. Be aware that this is a way deeper charge/discharge cycle than the phone would ever do. In order to prolong lifespan, Samsung is not using the full capacity of the battery.
Whether there's an algorithm tied to battery aging and fg_asoc, or the battery is actually a bit higher capacity than spec, it remains to be seen. I'll conduct more tests, and keep everybody posted.
Ask away any question the you may have and don't be bummed out it your Galaxy battery is reporting lower capacity from the start. It may not be the case.
Cheers,
Andrei.
daffster21 said:
Samsung is not using the full capacity of the battery.
Whether there's an algorithm tied to battery aging and fg_asoc, or the battery is actually a bit higher capacity than spec,
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I've notice DJI doing the same thing with my Phantom 3 drone batteries whenever I use a hobby-grade charger connected directly to the terminals of the battery itself. I say this is a good design by Samsung if it is as you are suggesting.
Good thinking, I have a ph3 battery lying around wi5h no more than 50 cycles on it. I could measure that too!
You need to remember that your Phantom 3 batteries have a nominal 4.35V per cell as opposed to the usual 4.2, so you would need to factor this in to your hobby grade charger. I have a Hyperion EOS.... model. I've used this to "revive" several phone and laptop cells in the past (once the cell isn't internally damaged).
I don't think one needs to be concerned about fg_asoc or fg_fullcapnom once there isn't too much deep discharging of the cells.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Sometimes I undercharge my ph3 batteries by 0.05v to make them last longer. The 4010 duo is one hell of a charger and I love it!
Back to the note 8 battery, I'm getting spectacular battery life with the new bigger cell and the One UI update. Currently at 60% remaining with 24h of use and 3h of SOT. Stellar!
Cheers!
Just a question, did they reseal the back cover for waterproofing after?
There's no they, I did it myself. Bought some original Tesa double sided tape from ifixit.com and it worked great.