nexus 9 crashing into white screen and speakers scream - Nexus 9 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting

Has this ever been solved? It seems to do it under 20 percent and anything slightly intense is going on line a game or video... Thought it was stock so reflashed image, thought it was stock so tried android n, thought it could be solved but dirty unicorn didn't work.
Any help would be greatly appreciated I hate only getting to use 50 percent of my tablets life before the slow charge back up to 100

djranoia said:
Has this ever been solved? It seems to do it under 20 percent and anything slightly intense is going on line a game or video... Thought it was stock so reflashed image, thought it was stock so tried android n, thought it could be solved but dirty unicorn didn't work.
Any help would be greatly appreciated I hate only getting to use 50 percent of my tablets life before the slow charge back up to 100
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are a bunch of other threads here about this issue, as well as in the Nexus help forums. This is a hardware failure and the only fix is a new motherboard or a new tablet. Don't waste your time trying to fix it through software.

GibsonSGJ said:
There are a bunch of other threads here about this issue, as well as in the Nexus help forums. This is a hardware failure and the only fix is a new motherboard or a new tablet. Don't waste your time trying to fix it through software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks I'll wait till the nexus tablet comes out then get that one then.

The help forum had a new suggestion. Take off the back, unplug the battery, plug it back in again (I cleaned the connectors with alcohol as well). As long as you're careful not to detach the camera it's an easy job - use a guitar plectrum to ease the back off... I've drained the battery completely for 3 days without a reoccurrence. It's probably not fixed - but it hasn't happened again yet.
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/nexus/MP7ODWyR62Y;context-place=topicsearchin/nexus/category$3Aother-discussions

jrmonton said:
The help forum had a new suggestion. Take off the back, unplug the battery, plug it back in again (I cleaned the connectors with alcohol as well). As long as you're careful not to detach the camera it's an easy job - use a guitar plectrum to ease the back off... I've drained the battery completely for 3 days without a reoccurrence. It's probably not fixed - but it hasn't happened again yet.
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/nexus/MP7ODWyR62Y;context-place=topicsearchin/nexus/category$3Aother-discussions
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same issue any fix?
Sent from my SM-N920C using XDA-Developers mobile app

Take the back off. Unplug the battery. See instructions above. I've now gone 2 weeks on 2 machines without a recurrence
Sent from my SM-G900FD using XDA-Developers mobile app

jrmonton said:
Take the back off. Unplug the battery. See instructions above. I've now gone 2 weeks on 2 machines without a recurrence
Sent from my SM-G900FD using XDA-Developers mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Happy to hear!

Surprised that doing this fixed it. Mine hasn't crashed for 2 days????

djranoia said:
Has this ever been solved? It seems to do it under 20 percent and anything slightly intense is going on line a game or video... Thought it was stock so reflashed image, thought it was stock so tried android n, thought it could be solved but dirty unicorn didn't work.
Any help would be greatly appreciated I hate only getting to use 50 percent of my tablets life before the slow charge back up to 100
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my Nexus 9 using XDA Free mobile app

jd1639 said:
Sent from my Nexus 9 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes?
Sent from my SM-N920C using XDA-Developers mobile app

Just unplugged the power cord from the main board and plugged it back.
This is the exact guide and steps I followed https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Nexus+9...lacement/36892 (except step 3 and 5 which I skipped completely)
I have fixed 2 tablets.

NoLimits71 said:
Just unplugged the power cord from the main board and plugged it back.
This is the exact guide and steps I followed https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Nexus+9...lacement/36892 (except step 3 and 5 which I skipped completely)
I have fixed 2 tablets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol i know i fixed mine like that too:good:

5warafat1 said:
lol i know i fixed mine like that too:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A few people over in the Nexus help forum who were out of warranty have had luck with this fix as well. One guy reported no issues after two months and discharging the tablet to 0% multiple times.

Related

Constantly Restarting

My prime reboots at least 3 or 4 times a day, whether it's browsing the web, using google maps, or using any of the other apps. It stalls, then restarts. It's running ICS.
I really like the Prime, had no defects, but I'm going to have to return it because this is totally unacceptable. Is anyone else having this issue?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1437392
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
have you received the update that came out yesterday?
tdrussell said:
have you received the update that came out yesterday?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's updating as I type. I'll give it 24 hrs more use, otherwise it's going back.
spuddyxd said:
It's updating as I type. I'll give it 24 hrs more use, otherwise it's going back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should probably do a factory reset to take apps out of the equation.
tdrussell said:
You should probably do a factory reset to take apps out of the equation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So after using it for a couple of hours, I'm still getting multiple random restarts with the latest update I'll do a factory reset anyway before I bring it back, but quite honestly why should I have to my spend time trying to work out what works and what doesn't? if I can't use the device for its intended purpose, I can't see any sense in keeping it.
It's really a shame, I wanted to like the TP, on paper it has everything I was looking for in a tablet. The reality though is it doesn't live up to expectations. Random restarts are just not acceptable when you're trying to compete with the iPad, it's not good enough.
I was in the same boat and the update yesterday did not help.
There's another update floating around that was sent out by an Asus tech to try out. I installed that one last night, too and have not had any problems since then.
I think the light is at the end of the tunnel!
Why create a new thread for a subject that has an Official ASUS thread at the very top of this General forum.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1449992
Please read before posting in future. Lets try to keep the forum as neat and tidy as possible.
nerdninja said:
I was in the same boat and the update yesterday did not help.
There's another update floating around that was sent out by an Asus tech to try out. I installed that one last night, too and have not had any problems since then.
I think the light is at the end of the tunnel!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which update?
@Mods, last post

Fix stuck pixels

I got a new transformer prime a couple of days ago, and I'm happy to report it has no wifi, GPS or Bluetooth issues
but it has a 3 stuck pixels in a 1.5cm area, which is covered under warranty, atleast as I understand
My thing is I wanna keep it. Is there anyway to 'wake them up' like you could with iOS products thru a cydia app
Thanks in advance
EDIT REASON: oops! I originally called the pixels dead. Thanks for getting me to notice that
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727
Nope, you can't raise pixels from the dead.
If you don't believe me, you can try a pixel fixing app (like this one: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.htc.chris.blackspotdetect&feature=search_result) and see if it helps you, however if your pixel is actually dead (and not just stuck) there likely isn't any software that will fix it.
almightywhacko said:
Nope, you can't raise pixels from the dead.
If you don't believe me, you can try a pixel fixing app (like this one: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.htc.chris.blackspotdetect&feature=search_result) and see if it helps you, however if your pixel is actually dead (and not just stuck) there likely isn't any software that will fix it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oops, i meant stuck, not dead. Thanks for making me notice my error.
I tried your application but the stuck pixels are in the lower bar and your application won't rotate. I found another app that does.
Should I put the time in to try to fix them, or are these apps useless?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium
wirelessFREAK said:
Oops, i meant stuck, not dead. Thanks for making me notice my error.
I tried your application but the stuck pixels are in the lower bar and your application won't rotate. I found another app that does.
Should I put the time in to try to fix them, or are these apps useless?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some people say these apps work ad other say it doesn't fix their issue.
If you have an hour or two to spend trying to fix it, I would say it couldn't hurt anything to try. If it doesn't work then you should still be able to go the RMA route.
wirelessFREAK said:
I got a new transformer prime a couple of days ago, and I'm happy to report it has no wifi, GPS or Bluetooth issues
but it has a 3 stuck pixels in a 1.5cm area, which is covered under warranty, atleast as I understand
My thing is I wanna keep it. Is there anyway to 'wake them up' like you could with iOS products thru a cydia app
Thanks in advance
EDIT REASON: oops! I originally called the pixels dead. Thanks for getting me to notice that
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey, just wondering what happened? did you RMA?
I bought a used transformer, and it has light bleed, and at least 8 stuck pixels [mostly only viewable on Black] scattered around, some smaller, some bigger.
can I RMA it? I'm not even sure about the warranty but I assume it's been less than a year from the original purchase..

Replacement note so much better

Here's an interesting thing. I am on my third note with the other two being replaced due to screen and USB plug issues respectively. I get my new note and it is remarkably better. The GPS works where it couldn't even lock before and the phone itself is sooo smooth. It this how it was supposed to work the whole time?
Did you find the coffee and bacon making feature yet? I hope your replacement is fully functioning.
Bacon ??
Yeh...mine makes bacon...but no sausage.....so I'm upgrading....LOL
Mine has a built in toaster.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda app-developers app
Don't forget the do homework app!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda app-developers app
I guess I need to get out the manual
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda app-developers app
LOL ....
And your a good sport....
We're just having fun is all ..
Truth be known ..a well running device is very nice, and I'm happy for ya ..
Mine has always been fine ...unless I jack it up ....(happens weekly )..
That said ...enjoy it ....g
Sent my Note in a week before my warranty was up to have the screen fixed. Now the screen is much better than it ever was before. The screen was great before but it is noticeably sharper and brighter. My buttons are also super bright now. I think the screen has to be a hardware upgrade that could only be in a new Note or replacement screen.
knoshann said:
Here's an interesting thing. I am on my third note with the other two being replaced due to screen and USB plug issues respectively. I get my new note and it is remarkably better. The GPS works where it couldn't even lock before and the phone itself is sooo smooth. It this how it was supposed to work the whole time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's funny...mine keeps calling shady 1-900 numbers on its own...I swear it wasn't me. Mine does talk dirty to me though.
Sent from my SGH-I717 using XDA Premium HD app
knoshann said:
Here's an interesting thing. I am on my third note with the other two being replaced due to screen and USB plug issues respectively. I get my new note and it is remarkably better. The GPS works where it couldn't even lock before and the phone itself is sooo smooth. It this how it was supposed to work the whole time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. Mine was replaced twice for different issues and the 3rd must be the charm. Colors are more vibrant, screen is brighter, and the phone is smoother. And it's a refurb. Weird.
More and More
Sounds as if xda really works
I'll be getting a warranty replacement device in another day...
Mine failed the ATT update, and the device is messed up badly... ATT did some sort of diagnostic thing over wifi and data at the same time, and said my files were damaged somehow from the redbend OTA push.....they just said a new one is on the way for FREE.....
I hope the next one runs well, like my last one did....R.I.P. I717.....g
gregsarg said:
I'll be getting a warranty replacement device in another day...
Mine failed the ATT update, and the device is messed up badly... ATT did some sort of diagnostic thing over wifi and data at the same time, and said my files were damaged somehow from the redbend OTA push.....they just said a new one is on the way for FREE.....
I hope the next one runs well, like my last one did....R.I.P. I717.....g
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you still have a warranty?
Chris2388 said:
Did you still have a warranty?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep...new device is waiting at home now.....g
And it arrived with a junk power button ....sigh
So after an hour on the phone with ATT, my new note 2 will arrive Monday, and they don't want the new device back.
The tech told me too put a button in and sell it.
It's looking like my days here in the note 1 section are gonna slow down ...g
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using XDA Premium HD app
Im on my first Note.... today the battery has been dying quick...Im talking about ... 20% in 30 minutes with no use ... Maybe a new battery or even ... a new note...
blatallic said:
Im on my first Note.... today the battery has been dying quick...Im talking about ... 20% in 30 minutes with no use ... Maybe a new battery or even ... a new note...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah that's pretty bad!
gregsarg said:
And it arrived with a junk power button ....sigh
So after an hour on the phone with ATT, my new note 2 will arrive Monday, and they don't want the new device back.
The tech told me too put a button in and sell it.
It's looking like my days here in the note 1 section are gonna slow down ...g
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They gave you a note 2 in exchange for your note 1?
knoshann said:
They gave you a note 2 in exchange for your note 1?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes ....but with a one time, $36.00 upgrade charge.
I've been a customer with them for nearly 15 years, since the early days and I also hold a level one business account.
So results for others will likely not be the same.
I've got 11 contracted devices in service with ATT, for my employees.
Having device replacements coming is much easier under those conditions.
They also let me keep the new device, and the tech told me to sell it for parts or repair the button and sell a new working device.
I've got a new power button coming Monday, and a shop I use regularly that will fix it for me too sell.
All together I'm placing 5 devices and their cases, chargers and packaging up for sale this week as I'm getting ready for the move into the note 2 this Tuesday.
I'm planning to stay around the note 1 section for a while, as we have many new users needing help from those of us who have been around this device for a while.
And I've also got duties to perform with the super thread and our Korean note users needing a section built inside the super thread space.....g

Z3v Overheating

My phone has been over heating. A LOT. Even with basic use. No gaming or anything. Anyone experience this? I called tech and they were no help. Told me to run in safe mode and remove my SD card..... Ya that won't work for me.
Thinking about full wipe but I dread resetting up everything.
rsfellman said:
My phone has been over heating. A LOT. Even with basic use. No gaming or anything. Anyone experience this? I called tech and they were no help. Told me to run in safe mode and remove my SD card..... Ya that won't work for me.
Thinking about full wipe but I dread resetting up everything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't had any issues like that. Only over heading I experienced were while using car navigation while wireless charging. You can try shopping cache plus restart to see if something is stuck, or if you have a new installation freeze that and see if things get better.
Another thing to look at is detailed battery use, see if there is any surprises. Many times the app that causes heating will also cause faster battery drain. If you can't find the app then full wipe may be needed.
Edit: one other question, did you change case recently? some cases don't transfer heat as well.
I did. A lot. Got to the point that I could take one picture and the camera would shut off because it was over heating. Hard reset didn't fix anything. I also had wireless problems (wifi would never stay off, airplane mode didn't work), and battery life was pretty poor (coming from Note 2). Replacement phone seems much better on all counts.
Thanks for the info guys. No case on the phone. Still working on rooting and playing with Xposed.... Maybe something there will help.... Or just have Verizon send a new one. I really do love this phone... So hopefully I can resolve this.... Maybe lollipop will help... If we ever get it....
Sent from my D6708 using XDA Free mobile app
I found that using settings reset is just below factory reset cleaned up my issues. It retains your programs and data.
Sent from my D6708 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Update
So had Verizon send me a new phone..... Have had it a day and a half and have already seen signs of over heating...... Granted it's close to 100 outside..... But I've been in the car with AC using GPS and it was getting really warm. I've had SEVERAL other phones with the same or more heavy usage with no over heating issues......
Not sure what to do. If it keeps up I'm going to have to consider a new phone....
Anyone know of any risks using the phone when it's over heating??? It's not going to explode or catch fire is it???
jac6695 said:
I did. A lot. Got to the point that I could take one picture and the camera would shut off because it was over heating. Hard reset didn't fix anything. I also had wireless problems (wifi would never stay off, airplane mode didn't work), and battery life was pretty poor (coming from Note 2). Replacement phone seems much better on all counts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rsfellman said:
So had Verizon send me a new phone..... Have had it a day and a half and have already seen signs of over heating...... Granted it's close to 100 outside..... But I've been in the car with AC using GPS and it was getting really warm. I've had SEVERAL other phones with the same or more heavy usage with no over heating issues......
Not sure what to do. If it keeps up I'm going to have to consider a new phone....
Anyone know of any risks using the phone when it's over heating??? It's not going to explode or catch fire is it???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. I can use the camera on this one but this is annoying. Might sell and go back to my trusty Note 2 that still hasn't sold anyway.
Anybody find any workarounds (besides the tin-foil inside the case thing)? I get camera shut-down after just playing around with the various modes without even recording anything. Thinking about getting an ice-pack to mount on the phone when I want to record videos......
GREEN Reactor said:
Anybody find any workarounds (besides the tin-foil inside the case thing)? I get camera shut-down after just playing around with the various modes without even recording anything. Thinking about getting an ice-pack to mount on the phone when I want to record videos......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
same problem here also dude.......... annoyying camera force closing!!!! getting heated up frequently while using camera...
any solution developers??????
Ugh this phone still do this on lollipop rom?
Yes! ?
Sent from my D6708 using XDA Premium HD app
p.shashikiran94 said:
same problem here also dude.......... annoyying camera force closing!!!! getting heated up frequently while using camera...
any solution developers??????
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey bro, you should try resetting the camera app. delete cache first,then data....disable then reenable. then reboot phone. Lemme know if it works
DroidUser_Wind said:
Hey bro, you should try resetting the camera app. delete cache first,then data....disable then reenable. then reboot phone. Lemme know if it works
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tried bro..... not working!
I was having the overheat issue when I used the camera, so i downloaded the google camera app and it seems to work better.
My wife and I got refurbished phones from VZW, her's crashes to home screen now (Camera) and mine works for a few minutes longer than the old one.
Right now I am looking into getting a new phone, this one is getting annoying, want something I can get current Android version on and not a year old unpatched (Stagefright) leak that is not even Marshmallow.
jac6695 said:
Ugh this phone still do this on lollipop rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes dude
jac6695 said:
Ugh this phone still do this on lollipop rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes bro
Lol why do you keep quoting me?
Look at his country of origin, he is not accustomed to our ways I would say. :good:
Cut him some slack he is trying to fit in.
Kothagudem is a town in Khammam district of the Indian state of Telangana. It is located in Kothagudem mandal of Kothagudem revenue division. It is located very near to the temple town of Lord Rama, known as Bhadrachalam
sorry friends.. I'm new to xda. sorry.

Android 7.1.2 Beta is live!!!!

Just my update. Hope we have Google Assistant.
No Google Assistant. No fingerprint gestures. Google failure company. The time came to buy iPhone.
Ben8200 said:
No Google Assistant. No fingerprint gestures. Google failure company. The time came to buy iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Geez. I wonder how's your life going in general...
Ben8200 said:
No Google Assistant. No fingerprint gestures. Google failure company. The time came to buy iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No Google Assistant. No fingerprint gestures. Apple failure company. The time came to buy Pixel.
therock3181 said:
Geez. I wonder how's your life going in general...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What? Take care of yourself. It's disappointing that I spent last year 750$ on Nexus 6P and I got problems with it like shut down off under 20% percent of battery life, while Apple has similar problems for their devices and they are fixing it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nexus6P/comments/5vygb8/if_apple_can_fixmitigate_the_issue_with_their/
puertorecon said:
Just my update. Hope we have Google Assistant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool. Please let us know if you think it solved the problem of shut off below 20% (if you were experiencing that issue at all). It's a tough one to identify because for me it happens about half of the time, not all of the time.
Thanks. Good luck!
Ben8200 said:
What? Take care of yourself. It's disappointing that I spent last year 750$ on Nexus 6P and I got problems with it like shut down off under 20% percent of battery life, while Apple has similar problems for their devices and they are fixing it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nexus6P/comments/5vygb8/if_apple_can_fixmitigate_the_issue_with_their/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem here. Hope you find the problem.
Disappointed that we don't get the assistant yet and no swipe on the fingerprint sensor. Other than that so far so good.
Enviado desde mi Nexus 6P mediante Tapatalk
Please can someone post up the build.prop for 7.1.2 beta. Thanks.
The 7.1.2 beta just installed on my phone and now I'm not getting any Google now cards. It just says can't reach your feed at the moment. Does anyone else have this problem?
sroach23 said:
The 7.1.2 beta just installed on my phone and now I'm not getting any Google now cards. It just says can't reach your feed at the moment. Does anyone else have this problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I get same error intermittently on my Pixel XL right now, so it's not 6p-specific.
Does anyone know if any of the pixel mods work on the beta?
I extracted the boot and modified it with dm-verity and force encryption disabled. But now I'm not sure how to test, I would need the images and not the update zip to fastboot flash the rest of update Images. I guess one would just update then fastboot flash boot. Or does google post preview images elsewhere? My work pc has fastboot setup and I'll update then test and report back. If anyone wants to try it here's the link.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/byjnhir714ngw21/dm-verity-encryptable-boot-npg05d.img?dl=0
I've read the finger print gestures were coming through the 7.1.2 beta and rumor has it 7.1.3 was getting Google assistant. But they did state "rumor has it" so don't know what's all in the 7.1.2 beta for us Nexus 6P folks.
sroach23 said:
The 7.1.2 beta just installed on my phone and now I'm not getting any Google now cards. It just says can't reach your feed at the moment. Does anyone else have this problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep had the same issue. Restarted phone now works as intended!
Are you all rooted? I couldn't get to boot with the OTA (no surprise) even after reflashing twrp & flashing su
JDROIDS said:
Cool. Please let us know if you think it solved the problem of shut off below 20% (if you were experiencing that issue at all). It's a tough one to identify because for me it happens about half of the time, not all of the time.
Thanks. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the problem is the battery, early battery degradation, they could mitigate this issue on the software side but it won't stop completely and the battery will keep getting worse.
I changed mine and no more shutdown and 2x more battery life.
and the reason why you only have this issue half the time is because if you use certains apps that use high voltage, it will trigger the shutdown (launching the the camera and taking picture is the easiest way to do it)
JDROIDS said:
Cool. Please let us know if you think it solved the problem of shut off below 20% (if you were experiencing that issue at all). It's a tough one to identify because for me it happens about half of the time, not all of the time.
Thanks. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's still shutting down early on 7.1.2, nothings fixed.
sroach23 said:
The 7.1.2 beta just installed on my phone and now I'm not getting any Google now cards. It just says can't reach your feed at the moment. Does anyone else have this problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This error is not due to android 7.1.2. I'm experiencing same on android 7.1.1 on my moto g having RR 5.8.2 rom.So, I guess it is more of a server side problem or a problem in google app itself
Ben8200 said:
Nexus 6P and I got problems with it like shut down off under 20% percent of battery life, while Apple has similar problems for their devices and they are fixing it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Batfink33 said:
It's still shutting down early on 7.1.2, nothings fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I and my wife both had the early shutdown problems on our phones - she's on an iPhone6 and I'm on the 6p. I got an RMA phone, and no more problems (exactly the same software setup). I don't think it's a software problem, and highly suspect planned obsolescence where the batteries are designed to have cells have a life of around 18 months or so. One of the cells in the battery dies, and so the voltage drops off way fast once the remaining good cells discharge and the phone battery meter can't figure out what's going on. I'd bet a box of doughnuts that no software change is going to fix the actual problem. I have no proof of that, just skeptical observation.
If I were a black helicopter & tin foil hat person, I'd even have a hint of wonder if that's what happened to the Explod-a-Note. Maybe the manufacturers were pushing the envelope of how little past the warranty date they could get the (non-replaceable) batteries to die. AFAIK, battery tech isn't much more compact / more mAH in recent years, so just makes me wonder...

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