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Hi
I have upgraded my tablet to usa official ics firmware by changing the region to usa
In the process I lost my root now its like a official usa tablet
So is there anyway the sony service people come to know that my tablet was rooted prior?
There is no su user in the apps and the root is completely gone
Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
I think they only check the serial code which is unique so, probaly there's nothing going on, also they probaly wouldn't notice it anyway.
But why do you want to know? is your device bricked do you have problems with your tab of is it just curiousity?
YF
Mahaco.
Mahaco said:
I think they only check the serial code which is unique so, probaly there's nothing going on, also they probaly wouldn't notice it anyway.
But why do you want to know? is your device bricked do you have problems with your tab of is it just curiousity?
YF
Mahaco.
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Click to collapse
just curiosity coz if at all anyday if i face a problem then i need to say that the problem is due to ur hardware and ur company and nothing from my side so i need replacement...he he he...
samyukta88 said:
just curiosity coz if at all anyday if i face a problem then i need to say that the problem is due to ur hardware and ur company and nothing from my side so i need replacement...he he he...
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Click to collapse
Haha xD i get it, but i think you don't have to worry i had my device bricked, Really bad with root on in changed region to portugal for some reason? all my date was gone because there was a little tiny problem that may cause problems in Condi's 2.X tool with the region changer and that happend to me so it wasn't repairable condi did make a improvement to provide people to brick their devices, but i had to send it back with all those changes and you know what? still a usefull warranty XD they even replaced the MTB Chip and that cost is almost egual to the tab so im glad as long the tab isn't rebootable ( Fully ) then you can do everything you want rooting flashing etc., but if it can reboot and you have a other issue then its a high chance that they notice something thats different
Don't mind my ****ty english and i'm lazy now too
Mahaco said:
Haha xD i get it, but i think you don't have to worry i had my device bricked, Really bad with root on in changed region to portugal for some reason? all my date was gone because there was a little tiny problem that may cause problems in Condi's 2.X tool with the region changer and that happend to me so it wasn't repairable condi did make a improvement to provide people to brick their devices, but i had to send it back with all those changes and you know what? still a usefull warranty XD they even replaced the MTB Chip and that cost is almost egual to the tab so im glad as long the tab isn't rebootable ( Fully ) then you can do everything you want rooting flashing etc., but if it can reboot and you have a other issue then its a high chance that they notice something thats different
Don't mind my ****ty english and i'm lazy now too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't get ur last sentence
If the tablet reboots how or what will they notice tht has changed?
Plz reply back
samyukta88 said:
I didn't get ur last sentence
If the tablet reboots how or what will they notice tht has changed?
Plz reply back
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Click to collapse
They could simply see the superuser app nothing more thats enough to know that
you mess up things by your self, just unroot device and thats it, then again,
If your device can't reboot and you can get in recovery try too do a factory reset
before you bring it back, it wil reset last changes and clear the last update.zip info,
for example a rom or whatever,
If you have a Samsung Galaxy SII rooted you will see a Warning sign if you start it,
if you send the phone to samsung for repair they will see that you have it rooted,
and whoeshh there goes your warranty.
Whoa these gadgets are pretty tough to deal with
Thanks a lot for providing me clearing all my doubts.....
samyukta88 said:
Whoa these gadgets are pretty tough to deal with
Thanks a lot for providing me clearing all my doubts.....
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Click to collapse
lol!
Hi Guys,
In the past few days ive noticed that if i dont check my phone regularly it will simply refuse to wake up (screen on). I know the phone is still working as the LightFlow settings still use the notification light when needed. I have also had situations where the phone wakes up but theres no touch functions, but locking and waking up again fixes that in 1 try. Has anyone else had this issue or am I going to have to send the phone back?
Thanks
Michael
P.S. The phone is not rooted and hasnt been updated since out the box. Any suggestions to root the phone to fix this will be ignored.
Uninstall LightFlow it has been known to cause this issue.
That is all we can suggest unless your willing to root.
Lennyuk said:
Uninstall LightFlow it has been known to cause this issue.
That is all we can suggest unless your willing to root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the suggestion. I had my HTC Desire rooted and this has put me off rooting my phone at the moment, but I was waiting for the Jelly Bean AOSP anyway.
Not trying to take this too far off topic, but what do you have against root? All root effectively is is an admin mode, you don't have to flash a custom rom.
Lennyuk said:
Not trying to take this too far off topic, but what do you have against root? All root effectively is is an admin mode, you don't have to flash a custom rom.
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Click to collapse
I dont have anything against root. Its just that when I have a problem with my phone and people suggest to root it, if it doesnt work im kinda screwed over with warranty etc.
Unfortunatly removing Lightflow didnt help and its still happening
if it doesnt work im kinda screwed over with warranty etc
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Click to collapse
It's quite easy to revert back to Stock for warranty repairs.
Rooting does not brick your phone.
d4fseeker said:
It's quite easy to revert back to Stock for warranty repairs.
Rooting does not brick your phone.
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Wont they reject it if its rooted? This would be the first phone ive sent for repairs. My HTC Desire never faulted in 2 years but this is starting to annoy me just a month and a half into my contract.
mtmannion said:
Wont they reject it if its rooted? This would be the first phone ive sent for repairs. My HTC Desire never faulted in 2 years but this is starting to annoy me just a month and a half into my contract.
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Click to collapse
Yes, but u can use "triangle away" (by chainfire) to reset flash counter(found in download mode) and flash a stock rom with Odin and back is your warranty.
root...warranty...bla bla bla...why want to return just because of that? do u know that samsung software engineers sucks? i bought nexus, and i just use it for 1 week. want to know why? because it's so boring. the phone so perfect. no problem at all. nothing to tweak, nothing to fix, nothing to improve. i switch back to Samsung Galaxy because of this (before this use SGS1, now SGS3). so, if you have problem like THIS, change your kernel, or just sit and wait for update to fix it. samsung monitoring it (SLOWWWWWLYYY)
mtmannion said:
Wont they reject it if its rooted? This would be the first phone ive sent for repairs. My HTC Desire never faulted in 2 years but this is starting to annoy me just a month and a half into my contract.
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Click to collapse
ascariz said:
root...warranty...bla bla bla...why want to return just because of that? do u know that samsung software engineers sucks? i bought nexus, and i just use it for 1 week. want to know why? because it's so boring. the phone so perfect. no problem at all. nothing to tweak, nothing to fix, nothing to improve. i switch back to Samsung Galaxy because of this (before this use SGS1, now SGS3). so, if you have problem like THIS, change your kernel, or just sit and wait for update to fix it. samsung monitoring it (SLOWWWWWLYYY)
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Click to collapse
U got a lot blablabla"s, Samsung"s phone has clearly the best hw but they don't give a s... about the sw.
About rooting, what the f... are talking about read the posts made by OP. he asked if u loose warrenty if u root and yes u do, but root is reversible and THAT is what the OP wanted to know
he asked if u loose warrenty if u root and yes u d
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Click to collapse
Over here afaik at least within the first period the seller has to actually prove you caused the damage to refuse the claim.
Having a rooted device will not stand as having caused hardware-damage.
So far I've yet to hear about a single case of warranty being refused in this country due to software modifications.
If it was as simple as putting a "Waranty void if removed" sticker on stuff actually having any meaning, that would be the end of democraty. Fortunately the law tells otherwise and manufacturers have to obey it (or buy their own law... at least in the USA that seems to work)
However it most certainly will make repairs far easier if the device is stock since they cannot even try to blame you for incorrect configurations or bad flashes.
ascariz said:
root...warranty...bla bla bla...why want to return just because of that? do u know that samsung software engineers sucks? i bought nexus, and i just use it for 1 week. want to know why? because it's so boring. the phone so perfect. no problem at all. nothing to tweak, nothing to fix, nothing to improve. i switch back to Samsung Galaxy because of this (before this use SGS1, now SGS3). so, if you have problem like THIS, change your kernel, or just sit and wait for update to fix it. samsung monitoring it (SLOWWWWWLYYY)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
zodiaxe66 said:
U got a lot blablabla"s, Samsung"s phone has clearly the best hw but they don't give a s... about the sw.
About rooting, what the f... are talking about read the posts made by OP. he asked if u loose warrenty if u root and yes u do, but root is reversible and THAT is what the OP wanted to know
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Click to collapse
Thanks for the help guys, Im on holiday at the moment so I'll see if theres a Kernal update when I get home. If not I'll check on the Jelly Bean (or something popular thats been out for a long time) rom stability and root for that. If nothing helps from those ill use the Triangle program to get rid of the root history and send it back for repairs.
EDIT: My Kernal is from May 13th. Surprised I havent had an update come thorugh yet. There isnt even a check for update button in my "About Phone"
There isnt even a check for update button in my "About Phone"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you by any chance on Orange UK or Three UK? (Can't remember which of both was it)
They've removed that button in their bloatware-edition of the Samsung ROM - probably to prevent users from updating over 3G connectivity.
d4fseeker said:
Are you by any chance on Orange UK or Three UK? (Can't remember which of both was it)
They've removed that button in their bloatware-edition of the Samsung ROM - probably to prevent users from updating over 3G connectivity.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bingo, Orange UK.
Happy 666th post
Happy 666th post
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Thanks =) I guess that means I'm far too much online, since I've accumulated these posts only since having my S3 =D
So that number is why I'm having such a particular foul mood today, May be related to exams too I sincerly HATE IT logic, especially Prolog -.-
Sadly there is no such thing as good-luck charms to protect against exams like the Pentagrams protect against evil. (Please noone now say it's the symbol of evil...)
Bingo, Orange UK.
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Click to collapse
Just flash any Samsung- or aftermarket-ROM (I recommend CM9 or the CM9-based ParanoidAndroid) of your choice and you're good.
DXLF3 modem should work well according to what I've heard.
So I sent my Atrix for repair as I couldn't stand the random reboots. It came back unfixed. I sent it again, this time warning Motorola that I wouldn't be ok with it coming back unfixed again and so it got back finally fixed.
However, the phone doesn't recognize the multimedia dock anymore ! Media center through HDMI works fine but not the dock : the phone doesn't charge nor does the audio work through the speaks I plug the dock to.
Do you think this is a software issue or an hardware one, something they messed up while repairing it.
If I have to send it one more time, I'll go nuts...
Thanks !
DannyBiker said:
So I sent my Atrix for repair as I couldn't stand the random reboots. It came back unfixed. I sent it again, this time warning Motorola that I wouldn't be ok with it coming back unfixed again and so it got back finally fixed.
However, the phone doesn't recognize the multimedia dock anymore ! Media center through HDMI works fine but not the dock : the phone doesn't charge nor does the audio work through the speaks I plug the dock to.
Do you think this is a software issue or an hardware one, something they messed up while repairing it.
If I have to send it one more time, I'll go nuts...
Thanks !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd guess that those things worked when it left, but not when it came back, that it would be a hardware issue if the software was unchanged. Just a thought though, do you have any mods installed or are you running a pure stock ROM?
Maybe they've noticed CM7 is better than their stock and they flashed CM7. :highfive:
lehjr said:
I'd guess that those things worked when it left, but not when it came back, that it would be a hardware issue if the software was unchanged. Just a thought though, do you have any mods installed or are you running a pure stock ROM?
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Click to collapse
Pure stock. And yes, it was working before it left for repair...
DannyBiker said:
Pure stock. And yes, it was working before it left for repair...
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Click to collapse
In that case I would say it's very likely that they broke something else. Their Facebook staff may be able to put you in touch with someone who can help as well as they seem to have access to people that the CSR's don't, or they may just delete your post. Motorola's Facebook did have a large number of complaints regarding issues with repairs a couple months ago, but they suddenly disappeared, most likely due to trying to do damage control (reputation management). There's also their forums, where the discussion of anything other than stock functionality is pretty much taboo. But yes, if it worked before, it should work now.
lehjr said:
In that case I would say it's very likely that they broke something else. Their Facebook staff may be able to put you in touch with someone who can help as well as they seem to have access to people that the CSR's don't, or they may just delete your post. Motorola's Facebook did have a large number of complaints regarding issues with repairs a couple months ago, but they suddenly disappeared, most likely due to trying to do damage control (reputation management). There's also their forums, where the discussion of anything other than stock functionality is pretty much taboo. But yes, if it worked before, it should work now.
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Was it sent in on warranty or did you pay to have it fixed. Either way I feel for you because I know I sent my 2 atrixes in total of 3 times and even though they were fixed/replaced under warranty I still paid about $45 shipping in the end. Everyone on atrix forums keeps praising motorola build quality but I have failed to see it in mine or my wife's atrixes.
affiatic said:
Was it sent in on warranty or did you pay to have it fixed. Either way I feel for you because I know I sent my 2 atrixes in total of 3 times and even though they were fixed/replaced under warranty I still paid about $45 shipping in the end. Everyone on atrix forums keeps praising motorola build quality but I have failed to see it in mine or my wife's atrixes.
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I think we're starting to see quite a few cases of storage related failures. I am a bit perplexed as what some consider to be qualifying characteristics of "build quality" myself.
lehjr said:
I think we're starting to see quite a few cases of storage related failures. I am a bit perplexed as what some consider to be qualifying characteristics of "build quality" myself.
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I myself see having to send them in on hardware issues within the 1st year as poor build quality. A new replacement they sent me froze on GPS then would not boot past moto screen as if it bricked itself. Was replaced with another new one after another 15$ I paid for shipping
I think some think USA company means quality. My new atrixes shipped from Mexico
Yeah, I'll have to pay to send it back again as well...
Do you think it's worth trying to flash a custom rom to see if it "fixes" it ?
Thanks.
DannyBiker said:
Yeah, I'll have to pay to send it back again as well...
Do you think it's worth trying to flash a custom rom to see if it "fixes" it ?
Thanks.
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Click to collapse
No, because it's likely that they would use that in order to blame you for whatever is wrong with the device. If it's a hardware issue, no amount of third party software is going to fix it. I would however try to get in contact higher up in the chain of command regarding the issue. It's one thing to ship a device with a defect, it's another thing to have to ship the same device back and forth continuously to get it fixed. And the sad part is that this is just one of many similar stories regarding repairs. I guess that "New Motorola" just isn't quite so new after all.
lehjr said:
No, because it's likely that they would use that in order to blame you for whatever is wrong with the device. If it's a hardware issue, no amount of third party software is going to fix it. I would however try to get in contact higher up in the chain of command regarding the issue. It's one thing to ship a device with a defect, it's another thing to have to ship the same device back and forth continuously to get it fixed. And the sad part is that this is just one of many similar stories regarding repairs. I guess that "New Motorola" just isn't quite so new after all.
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Click to collapse
I would do a factory reset in recovery. My wife's came back with same issues it was sent in with. They replaced the screen for her. The proximity sensor still wasn't working right someone recommended factory reset from recovery. It fixed it for her. Before that I knew nothing about stock recovery
affiatic said:
I would do a factory reset in recovery. My wife's came back with same issues it was sent in with. They replaced the screen for her. The proximity sensor still wasn't working right someone recommended factory reset from recovery. It fixed it for her. Before that I knew nothing about stock recovery
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Hmmm, I was assuming that was already done
lehjr said:
Hmmm, I was assuming that was already done
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Yes but sometimes people don't realize there is more than one way to do a factory reset on stock. Until about a year ago I thought you could only do this through settings. Recovery is the best way I now know
A good tutorial for that ?
'Cause that's what I meant when I asked if flashing a custom ROM would help : can it be something that isn't properly setup at a software level ? I tried flashing the stcok rom again with RSDLite but it didn't delete any data so I'm not sure it really reset anything.
Thanks !
DannyBiker said:
A good tutorial for that ?
'Cause that's what I meant when I asked if flashing a custom ROM would help : can it be something that isn't properly setup at a software level ? I tried flashing the stcok rom again with RSDLite but it didn't delete any data so I'm not sure it really reset anything.
Thanks !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mean a guide to factory reset the device in recovery? I thought that was in the manual, but it isn't, although I did find it here.
So I did a factory reset from Recovery, which worked as all was wiped. However, still no luck with the dock.
The reason I asked if trying to install a custom rom was a good idea is because I'm wondering if flashing another Webtop version or the HDMI-hack could make it work. To be clear : do you think that the fact that the Factory Reset didn't work establishes that it's hardware issue ?
DannyBiker said:
However, the phone doesn't recognize the multimedia dock anymore ! Media center through HDMI works fine but not the dock : the phone doesn't charge nor does the audio work through the speaks I plug the dock to
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As you're able to attach the HDMI and this works are you sure it's not the dock that's faulty? Had a quick look around and came across this... http://www.atrixforums.com/forum/mo...my-hd-multimedia-dock-useless-without-tv.html also, have you tried to clean ect connectors/ports. Might be worth a try
I should try again but I have two docks and the other one doesn't work either. However, I do feel that the AC connector doesn't feel really stable when inside the dock..it just moves around. I'd have to try with the the other's dock AC cable but it's an UK one and I need an adapter.
The thing is that the dock wasn't touched while the phone was under repair so I don't see how it can break just like that.
As I stated before, connection through HDMI to a TV-set works fine as well as charging with the power cord.
EDIT : saw the link you shared and it feels like the exact same issue indeed !
Well, it's fixed...kinda.
I unlocked it and flashed the "fixed webtop addon" from CSROM. It still wasn't working but with it, I got that the message saying that the device was not in charge anymore when I disconnected from the dock, which it didn't before; it wasn't charging however.
I don't think that was relevant but then I decided to give a look at the dock again and removed the top of it and...tadaaa, it worked ! From what I understand, the dock's connectors were not entering the the phone's inputs enough. I still think it's because they ****ed up during repair but heck, I won't send it back for that...
Good to hear you got it working
So I was putting new roms on my s3 for us cellular. I was searching for a nice fast and clean rom that was similar to stock and found Energy HD 2.0, I put this on my phone and it failed due to signature? I hit reboot and my phone hasnt come back on since. When plugged in the red light shows for a little then eventually goes off as well. The computer picks it up as some qh driver, and odin doesnt read it. any fix? please help. young and dumb.:crying::crying::crying::crying:
are you sure it's a i9300? the international version? because if not, you bricked it
Glebun said:
are you sure it's a i9300? the international version? because if not, you bricked it
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Click to collapse
****. Is there any fix for this mate?
Bolrugard said:
****. Is there any fix for this mate?
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Click to collapse
No solution.....Samsung service center is the last option. Your warranty is void so they will charge you.
Now to save your money for repair charges do some acting in front of service center guys.tell them that u r upgrading s3 from kies then suddenly phone reboot and not going to on.
exynoss said:
No solution.....Samsung service center is the last option. Your warranty is void so they will charge you.
Now to save your money for repair charges do some acting in front of service center guys.tell them that u r upgrading s3 from kies then suddenly phone reboot and not going to on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I contacted them they are paying for the fix. I told them I updated to jellybean and then while I was texting it got really hot and just flashed off. They tried to service it but no help and decided to pay for the fix and everything. thanks for the feedback guys much appreciated!
Bolrugard said:
I contacted them they are paying for the fix. I told them I updated to jellybean and then while I was texting it got really hot and just flashed off. They tried to service it but no help and decided to pay for the fix and everything. thanks for the feedback guys much appreciated!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
glad it worked out.
congrats, you've just committed a felony :highfive:
Glebun said:
glad it worked out.
congrats, you've just committed a felony :highfive:
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Click to collapse
lol wouldnt be the first time with software such as this... hey would you know if theyd be able to tell when they service it whether I was uploading roms or not? because they said if they detected rooting that it would void the warranty ? It is just off and wont even hook up to the computer.
I am asking this because if I can the us cellular technician can try to fix it for free if he doesnt notice that it has been rooted.
Bolrugard said:
lol wouldnt be the first time with software such as this... hey would you know if theyd be able to tell when they service it whether I was uploading roms or not? because they said if they detected rooting that it would void the warranty ? It is just off and wont even hook up to the computer.
I am asking this because if I can the us cellular technician can try to fix it for free if he doesnt notice that it has been rooted.
Click to expand...
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I need feedback asap please!!! I am going tomorrow !
Bolrugard said:
I need feedback asap please!!! I am going tomorrow !
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Click to collapse
Screen on and boots to download mode yes see root .
No screen on probably not .
jje
JJEgan said:
Screen on and boots to download mode yes see root .
No screen on probably not .
jje
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot buddy appreciate the response! I will be taking it up around 2:00pm eastern time today. I am gonna tell the technician at us cellular that I was in the middle of upgrading to the new uh jellybean I think? (play stupid) and the phone got extremely hot and flicked off and never returned back on. They said if they cant upload the software back on the phone that I will have to get a brand new phone.
I will keep you updated on what happens! Hopefully this thread will help others get their phones replaced or fixed!
Thanks everyone!
Bolrugard said:
Hopefully this thread will help others get their phones replaced or fixed!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or, hopefully act as a lesson to search, read and understand before hitting the GO button.
boomboomer said:
Or, hopefully act as a lesson to search, read and understand before hitting the GO button.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats true too, I am usually good about that as I did about 4-5 roms before the one that messed my phone up. I was in such a hurry and google mislead me haha.
Bolrugard said:
Thats true too, I am usually good about that as I did about 4-5 roms before the one that messed my phone up. I was in such a hurry and google mislead me haha.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
heres an update. I took my phone in. He couldnt get it to turn on. He took it apart to check for damages to the motherboard and wires. So he has to send it in and I should get mine repaired or a new one in about 10 days. Worth the wait since its free, the guy there was stupid af and acted and talked so much like he knew everything... lol
I successfully rooted my phone and successfully installed the volume hack package and the battery fox for 4.0.4 (both I found how to do on this website) and for a good few months my phone was working fine on Android 4.0.4
Then one day I was replying to a text message the phone just switched itself off and wouldn't get past the boot screen where it comes up with the Samsung Galaxy S III logo. With no one offering me any help when I've posted about this problem on this site and various others and after searching google for days to find a fix as I am a Mac user (Heimdall) with no access to a PC (Odin) at all, I took it to a local phone shop, explained the problem to see if they'd be able to fix it. They had it for 2 weeks and when I went to collect they told me that the phone ended up having to be sent to Samsung and there was nothing they could do with it. (I figured that anyway as it was rooted). Now I have got the phone back, it's in a worse state than what it was when I took it into the shop. When I try to power on the phone, nothing happens at all, it's just a black screen. I assumed the battery might be flat so when I went to plug in the charger, the battery symbol shows but it's got a circle in the middle of it it as though it's loading but nothing else happens.
Does this mean my phone is completely dead for good with no fix at all?
If it's bin fodder I may as well sell it for parts and try to get a bit of money back out of it as I bought this SIM free and it cost me quite a bit back when it first came out.
I'd appreciate it if I didn't get a load of snotty remarks as though I'm the thickest person on earth! I am fairly new to all this and it's all I ever seem to experience from this website. Please only reply if you have a genuine answer to my problem.
Thank you.
:good:
Are you able to get into recovery?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
acwalter said:
Are you able to get into recovery?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
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Click to collapse
Hi, no I'm not able to do anything with it.
s1mon87 said:
Hi, no I'm not able to do anything with it.
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Click to collapse
Service centre next .
Your only help from here is charge battery and try usb jig to boot to download mode .
jje
Its SDS. Loads of threads about it. Needs Motherboard replacement from Samsung
rootSU said:
Its SDS. Loads of threads about it. Needs Motherboard replacement from Samsung
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Click to collapse
Thank you for that, I'd never heard the term SDS (Sudden Death Syndrome) before. I didn't even know it existed! But anyway since you mentioned that, I did a search, found this link http://www.freesamsungrepairs.com and I called the number, they reckon they can fix it free of charge providing there's no physical or water damage (which there isn't) and all I have to pay is the postage fees! Sounds like there maybe some hope after all!
s1mon87 said:
Thank you for that, I'd never heard the term SDS (Sudden Death Syndrome) before. I didn't even know it existed! But anyway since you mentioned that, I did a search, found this link http://www.freesamsungrepairs.com and I called the number, they reckon they can fix it free of charge providing there's no physical or water damage (which there isn't) and all I have to pay is the postage fees! Sounds like there maybe some hope after all!
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Click to collapse
Try your carrier / samsung first. It should be covered by warranty.
rootSU said:
Try your carrier / samsung first. It should be covered by warranty.
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Click to collapse
Can people even return a rooted device with SDS?
Prominence19 said:
Can people even return a rooted device with SDS?
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Click to collapse
They can't tell if it doesn't power up.