ORIGINALLY from this thread: ( i just want to help to have more signature )
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294213
http://www.petitiononline.com/xdadevs/petition.html
To: Microsoft
This Petition aims to show the support for xda-developers.com's archive of 'ROM Images'
The Undersigned wish to notify Microsoft Corp. of their strong feelings against the recent demands to remove the 'ROM Images'. We feel that they bring more publicity and support to the 'Windows Mobile' platform and device: without this we feel they would not be as popular as they are to this date.
Please think rationally Microsoft!
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
This is an old and sensitive issue. This is not solely Microsoft's decision. Microsoft's Windows Mobile is bundled with Manufacturer's device under operators/distributors specification. This is a three-way agreement. Microsoft can not sell you the OS, because the device drivers is built by third party.
The reason for its removal from this site is the consequences of flashing an unofficial ROM. Some damn users don't know what they are doing... Flash their devices with custom ROMs, brick their devices unnecessarily, claims warranty to operator/distributor, and even sometimes demand support to an unofficial ROM.
Simply stated, if your were in their shoes, what would you do?
In the same manner, we, the users who understand the situation, are left with devices with very little or no support when new devices come out. We were sold with devices that cost like a PC, and NO OPTION to buy an upgrade from them.
And what are we supposed to do? buy again another device with the new software? That's plain bull.
So, your campaign is pointless! In the end, what really matters to them is the bottom line.
jiggs said:
This is an old and sensitive issue. This is not solely Microsoft's decision. Microsoft's Windows Mobile is bundled with Manufacturer's device under operators/distributors specification. This is a three-way agreement. Microsoft can not sell you the OS, because the device drivers is built by third party.
The reason for its removal from this site is the consequences of flashing an unofficial ROM. Some damn users don't know what they are doing... Flash their devices with custom ROMs, brick their devices unnecessarily, claims warranty to operator/distributor, and even sometimes demand support to an unofficial ROM.
Simply stated, if your were in their shoes, what would you do?
In the same manner, we, the users who understand the situation, are left with devices with very little or no support when new devices come out. We were sold with devices that cost like a PC, and NO OPTION to buy an upgrade from them.
And what are we supposed to do? buy again another device with the new software? That's plain bull.
So, your campaign is pointless! In the end, what really matters to them is the bottom line.
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bro this is not my campaign, im just supporting this.
Thanks for the explanation,.
Feh, Microsoft just doesn't want unsupported devices floating around. <_<
And seriously, the custom ROM excuse is... crap.
It's similar to the case of a laptop owner having his warranty voided because he ran Linux instead of Vista (he later got his warranty repair anyway).
I know it's a PDA but I expect the folks who make the stuff to be better than trying to lock people down into a walled garden. -.-"
Especially a brand such as O2 who sell the product then dont provide a decent OS or service to go with it! These are our devices we paid for them we extracted the OS's to build or rebuild a better quality rom, from what I have seen nobody has asked for money or otherwise! Lets face it MS arnt going to break their budget over a handful of ppl cooking and sharing a few upgraded roms.
This was an old thread.. Feb.
It now really does not or really concern as all the rom is for evaluation and testing. As long we agree to flash it to the so-call required version, and even it spoilt, we fix ourself
Mine's out of warranty. The only thing I wish right now is that O2 actually releases the service manual.
Dont forget someone needs to pay for the software
post removed because of my employer
homer285 said:
Especially a brand such as O2 who sell the product then dont provide a decent OS or service to go with it! These are our devices we paid for them we extracted the OS's to build or rebuild a better quality rom, from what I have seen nobody has asked for money or otherwise! Lets face it MS arnt going to break their budget over a handful of ppl cooking and sharing a few upgraded roms.
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Let's see, I have setup the download center for the XDA Atom WM6 AKU0.7 to see the statistics... as of this date, there are 3,349 downloads....
jiggs said:
Let's see, I have setup the download center for the XDA Atom WM6 AKU0.7 to see the statistics... as of this date, there are 3,349 downloads....
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briliant jiggs,.
Hi Guys,
Don't forget that windows mobile is a copy written bit of software. Someone needs to pay for it. Normally the vendor pays Microsoft for the license for your device. That's fine for the initial release. However notice that only products that are still being sold get an updated rom? Why's that.... Because the vendor still wants to sell that device. Once its out of production no rom upgrades... funny that. Its the trend for all consumer electronics. Its all about pushing sku's or stock unit items. Remember that all these company's are in the game to make money.
How can o2 make any money by making a rom upgrade available to a new OS when they need to pay Microsoft for the OS and they cant make any more money as the unit is out of production.
I think the whole thing is silly. I have an atom exec that is still faster than many of the "new" mobile 6 devices with older processors but no officially upgrade option. I am not going to dump my perfectly good atom exec to something else for no reason but I want mobile 6.
What needs to happen, so everyone is happy and gets their $$ is that o2 should offer an upgrade service. I'd be happy to pay for an upgrade rom that way both O2 get their slice and Microsoft get their $ for the software.
*We should be pushing o2 to offer an upgrade service with a price tag to produce the new roms. Its never going to happen for free.* Microsoft don't give software away for free if you haven't noticed. It should be much cheaper than buying a new PDA with pretty much the same(or lower) specs as they haven't really moved in hardware they just keep moving buttons around.....
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Boy. HP used to do this before wm2k3se to wm5. How I wish it existed, then I didn't get to waste 5 mos of my life just to make the upgrade myself. BUT, the bottom line is much better with the new devices...
How much percentage of users really do flash their devices with the 'test' ROMs?
Just that the guy who quoted the above would know... the official wm5 ROM for the Atom really sucks!!!
Related
Well, after the last email i sent to dopod about a newer firmware i posted here, i sent another one, as theres obviously AKU3.3 updates from HTC themselves.
Dear Michael,
The 838pro ROM code is AKU2.3
I checked our schedule again for you and nothing has changed since your last email . There would not be any new ROM update in future for the Dopod 838 Pro.
If you want an updated unit, we suggest buying the newer Dopod 810. I appreciate that the Dopod 838 Pro is our current top PDA, however, we feel no update is needed. If your not happy with not having WPA2, i suggest more care in selecting a PDA next time.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
ANZ Service
Dopod International (Australia New Zealand) Pty Ltd
ABN 48 119 011 639
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Be rest assured, the "CARE" i take next time, will be NEVER to buy, or recommend a Dopod to anyone ever again. Considering they are trying very hard to break into the Australian market, they've done an appaling job at winning customers with crap service like this.
And no offence but its clear they don't care and are employing monkeys with there "engirsh"
8one pissed off Dopod owner8
Gosh That's really bad news...
I will also Inform and Definately NOT recommend to any of me friends/forums on DoPoD Devices (YuCK!)
or you can politely make it known to them that we've a aku 3.3 update for hermes here so they can just put a note in their future sales boxes to inform customers to come here to update a software that they are too lazy to do
:LooooooooooooooooooooL: m8!!
They surely are lazy!
that is fu**n s**t of Dopod as im using a Dopod 838 Pro.... as i stuffed by radio when trying to unlock the CID im now stuck to Dopod... might just have to go and buy the IMEI-CHECK unlocker....
Ahh wells.. At least they are the OEM distributor for HTC. We still can get nice updates.
Thats the bit about it all i don't understand.
HTC own Dopod now. There supposed to be HTC's break into Asia pacific etc.
Even though HTC release newer, needed ROM's, dopod's answer to that is essentially "Go F**k yourself, we want more money from you, so to upgrade buy another PDA"
Rest assured, when i buy a new PDA, especially in Oz, it won't ever be a Dopod thats for sure.
If your not happy with not having WPA2, i suggest more care in selecting a PDA next time.
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Someone interacting with customers and talking like that will soon find out that this can be "career limiting experience".
What is the email for the support or the person you contacted?
I reckon if enough of us ask about it they might respond
Cheers
If they're owned by HTC, I'd forward that onto them. It is not good customer service to respond like that. A
nyway the problem is that when you are buying a device finding information in that much detail is very hard and it is completely capable of WPA2 and you would assume a market leading device would be capable of that.
-wireless- said:
What is the email for the support or the person you contacted?
I reckon if enough of us ask about it they might respond
Cheers
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[email protected]
I've fowarded onto HTC. Lets see what they have to say about how there new retail arm treats HTC's new market and potential customers.
Seriously, i can handle them not doing an update (although that in itself is poor customer after sales support, basically buy the unit then we don't give a f**k about you) but the complete lack of respect for me and their own company pisses me off.
Oh well, how ever much i actually love the device, another dopod product will never grace my hands again, thats for sure.
yeah, dopod service sucks in this part of the world. you should pray that the device has no issue. i have a loose stylus issue and would rather not send it in for servicing
I appreciate that the Dopod 838 Pro is our current top PDA [...] i suggest more care in selecting a PDA next time.
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what a tool!
Some people really dont understand how to treat their customers. There are hundreds of better ways he could have gotten his point accross without being rude, and contradicting himself.
Hi, first post here.
I have owned numerous PDA's over the last 5yrs or so and cannot remember any of them getting an upgrade for the firmware. There have been various updates to fix minor bugs but usually if you wanted a newer OS then you replaced the PDA. HTC and Dopod arent doing anything different than any other manufacturer. I dont like it either but can see that if they released a new OS for the product then no-one would buy the newest kit.
It stinks but thats how it is
Umm, clearly you are very mistaken.
PDA's have had continuos updates for bug fixes etc for a long time. The Hermes has bugs that need to be resolved.
AKU3.3 is NOT a new OS. Its WIN CE 5 still, just with latest patches. Nearly all other manufacturers release updates. I don't care what happened 5 years ago, then industry and its problems then are nothing like they are today.
Its perfectly acceptable to expect a third party producer of a product, that the main manufacturer has released updates for, to get of their own lazy arses and customise that update for them.
What your saying, is its perfectly fine to release unfinished, bug ridden hardware/software and then the consumer should just pay for a whole new unit on a hope that that one isn't as bad.
Or, would you expect a simple update that they have to do very little work to customise to be released when its spoon fed to them.
Tell you what, buy a car from me, i won't include wheels with it. Everythign will work, but it will be usesless to you. You'd expect me to supply some simple wheels, but i will palm you off with bad service, **** english and tell you you should buy the newer, better car as that has wheels.
Um, clearly in my post i stated:
There have been various updates to fix minor bugs but usually if you wanted a newer OS then you replaced the PDA. If this is a MINOR update then I stand to be corrected.
You can keep your car by the way
No its not minor, its probably in the same capacity as SP2 was for XP.
However, nonetheless, it is an update thats needed to make the devices function as they are supposed to.
The update has been released by HTC to carriers. Dopod, are simply to tight and lazy to do anything, and beleive it acceptable to shaft its customers, rather than what some of the better carriers are doing (HTC direct, AT&T etc) and releasing an update thats much needed.
Im not asking for them to update to Crossbow for free. Im asking them to release a standard upgrade, to help their device they released to function properly.
you just got the standard Customer Support bugger-off-with-with-new-rom-inquiries reply, it's not up to him to know whether it will be available or not..
Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket).
So I think that htc roms must be available in torrents using public trackers and publish in mininova.org, meganova.org or other torrents sites available. If everyone seed some roms they will always be available for public.
What you think about this?
I am down... just don;t know how to package them up or else I would. I get a new pc this week and have though of making my other one a file store...
Hi,
We must build a private network for Forum users, We can use KDX a multi platform peer to peer client/server app, it is like Hotline.
Slimsaturn: BUY A MAC OR USE LINUX BOYCOTT MICROSOFT
Regards,
Taguapire.
boycott microsoft!
i was thinking of upgrading to Vista. now i changed my mind! u dont piss off your customers that supporting u!
Since i have a hermes and i live for xda, I'm backing up the ftp and i'll store it. Possibly setup ftp access for requested users.
I think we should tell M$ to ........................................KISS OUR A$$..............................OUR...................................."ENTIRE......A$$"...............That's what "I" think............................
That being said........ start backing up the ROMS etc...... we'll figure out how to get them out to users.......... if you can download the things from HTC.......why does M$ have their panties in a bunch?????????? Sheeesssshhhhhh what a bunch of CRY BABIES!!!!!!!!
vpu2....OUT!!!!
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
Its the enthusiast that keeps them making money! I am constantly "selling" the merits of M$ powered PPC's to anyone who will listen, I am in the IT industry and have in the last 3 or so years been responsible for over 50 sales of M$ based devices to customers and friends. Because of XDA Dev I will buy a WM device again and again. But if M$ plays the Bully and forces the demise of XDA Dev I will have no reason to by a WM device again. I will then look into other devices such as Sony etc.
I'm sure you are all the same as me, its the the amazing endless customization options that XDA and WM devices offer you that keeps you coming back, without that its no better than any other device.
But sadly Big Corporations don't care, even if we could get a petition signed by 10 000 users they would just shrug and say "So what, there are millions of other users"
What I would like to know is what possible damage can be done by having M$ roms available to M$ customers. Its not like someone can make his own device and then download a rom here. If you use a rom from XDA Dev then you own a M$ device! and you have paid M$ for the rom, Why then are you not allowed to make it better!
No if/when we can get a working Linux solution we can once and for all "dump" M$.
Maybe HTC will bring out a device running Linux in the near future.
Yours in Hope
Jules
As annoying as it is this is the right thing for MS to do to protect themselves.
If it was a little company would you feel less angry?
The only reason you feel angry is due to them being a multi billion dollar corporation beating down on "the little guys" aka us.
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
The way I see it, allowing people to down load different ROM's hurts no one. Al they are trying to do is fix up the defective software. If MS spent more time fixing the defects in their software and less time with lawyers people would not need look around for other ROM's. There is prima facie a very powerful case for a class action against MS for the defects in WM5.
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
ZaJules said:
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
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Frustrating thing is its not about profit etc... i read that IP (Intellectual Property) law in US states that if you knowingly let ANYONE (not just in US) use your IP without correct license you stand to let anyone do that. Since you have willingly let someone get away with IP infringment you couldnt claim say if the vista source code was used without permission!??
A simple agreement between xda-devs and MS would get passed this but i guess the boffs in the MS law department arent willing to listen. We are possibly the best source of FREE testing and debugging they have!
And may i remind everyone we have ALL paid for a WM license, this is not (as some idiot has said in the "sign the petition" thread) software piracy, it is FREELY available from operators and HTC!
Well, for what I read M$ says that many customers are pissing of their mobile phone providers with roms that are unsupported by that provider.
And for that reason, they say........, roms must not be available here.....
It's fine we can put them elsewhere.
This saves the forum from being shut down or having any legal problems at all. This ensures a long lasting community without having to go underground.
suineg said:
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
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I will pay for an upgrade, but if they don't make it available I have no moral problem of using a hacked version for the Hermes. It's not that M$ will loose any revenue if the product isn't available to buy. Not having VM6 will not make me buy a new phone faster either. As most of us I guess we're stuck with a 2 year contract or so anyhow.
It seems like a really bad thing on MS' side but really its not that bigga deal.
With so many of us here it is easy to build another database at other places and even servers like rapidshare, megaupload etc. They might take them down but they will be back up very quickly. That being said once the network is made all we need to do is get the word around via PM's as to keep it off the boards to keep MS from being able to do anything. Simple
Upload the roms, have in your sig you have links, give out the links in PM's and we are all good to use xda as the great community it always has been
Cheers
vador said:
Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket)....
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Click to collapse
Actually; it's HTC we should be mad at... If they would release some decently functioning firmware for our devices in the first place, there would not be any need for a ROM archive so we can cook up our own ROM sets...
And i really supect HTC has also triggered this M$ action, because of the appearance of diverse test-ROM's for Trinity and Hermes among others...
Just like someone said before: why do these multi-billion-dollar-bohemoths of companies piss on their customers like this ??? It's truly shocking how they crank out half-working product and kick them on the market, and forget about them instantly (support for existing customers? what's that ...?).
They should better concentrate to work with us, and create a better user-experience for all their customers... But since we have a thing called "world-economy", don't count on it to happen....it never will...
Makes me sad....
ZaJules said:
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
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Not that I like that the ROMs were removed, it was a very helpful service.
But this anti-MS ranting does not help. MS is not the salvation army, and they do (and have to do) what is legally possible to protect their business interests and that of their customers. The free download of one of their OS is not something to can seriously expect them to tolerate in the long run.
Folks:
Wiki's are editable by everybody... especially the place were "links to roms" are.
XDA will fight any m$ attempts to have us remove links to roms. That amounts to web censorship.
Well I had just made an excalibur torrent, but I like hermes better, I should have everything down tomorrow and a torrent ready then, sucks Im not gonna be able to use orb. if you havent I suggest you register at demonoid.com. there are other torrents there you may find interesting.
The Cingular forums are now shutting down discussion re the new ROMS ... nice ... just trying to keep us from helping each other out (you would think it would be to their benefit, so folks don't bug their non-existent customer service)
see here for all the gory details.
This is getting more and more ridiculus by the day
Hallllllo M$ and providers. when we buy a device we ALREDY get a licenced WM, what's your problem???????????????????????????????????????
weinson said:
The Cingular forums are now shutting down discussion re the new ROMS ... nice ... just trying to keep us from helping each other out (you would think it would be to their benefit, so folks don't bug their non-existent customer service)
see here for all the gory details.
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the thread has been resurrected for the time being...no idea how long that will last though.
This is just like Cingular, I have been told that this update would be out since Dec. by Cingular sales and it never has. We cannot help it if Cingular is so slow on getting updated services out. If they would put more effort in service and less on what they are going to call them selfs maybe they could supply better service. I have 19 cingular accounts and may move all of them if they don't get there act together.
Steven -
Do what my wife did, she is part of the State of FL gov contract on Cingular and she has a fair bit of power in moving accounts so she basically said if you can't support your gear with updated ROMs maybe she would move accounts somewhere else.
I doubt they care but who knows...
so many dumb-ass flashed their phones w/o reading the instructions, bricked their phones and start to call Cingular/ATT for help/repair/replacement. Next thing we know, MS is trying to remove all ROMs, ATT removing thread about new ROMs....
That's y we should make this community go underground, ban the suckers who don't read, link ROMs to rapidshare or other similar sites instead of this site's FTP server.
It's sad to see we have to remove the ROMs but I wouldn't blame MS or ATT for asking XDA-developers to do so.
Oh, btw, if you guys care go sign the petition, show us some supports even if we dont get what we want.
peace.
It's the War on Common Sense. And since all of us are a minority here, ignorance and misinformation prevail.
The main reason Big Business does this is because the executives are a much older generation that is scared and terribly confused by the Internet. So to them, we're all looking to ruin their business by making their phones work in ways they didn't intend for them to be used. What they don't know is, our solutions are much better than the ones they provide (hence the void we're filling by being here, supporting, and working out their phones for free) and if they were to release even just half of the ROMs the XDA community cooked up, they'd have a much happier customer base.
steven814 said:
This is just like Cingular, I have been told that this update would be out since Dec. by Cingular sales and it never has. We cannot help it if Cingular is so slow on getting updated services out. If they would put more effort in service and less on what they are going to call them selfs maybe they could supply better service. I have 19 cingular accounts and may move all of them if they don't get there act together.
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Cingular/AT&T is pretty much the only carrier with even a _leaked_ rom... so how are you going to say that they're slow? They're actually ahead of the curve, in my opinion.
The 8525 came out in November. I'm pretty sure that there must have been some miscommunication if you recall someone in December told you the Rom would be out tomorrow (or any specific immediate timeframe). "Soon" is not necessarily "one month" or less. I think sometimes we hear and preceive what we WANT to be the truth based on what we actually _did_ hear. I mean, as far as I can tell, HTC just released the 3.3 rom to carriers a matter of weeks ago. Cingular has been working on things other carriers aren't doing, too (PTT, Cingular Video, etc.) So they're putting more into the rom than most of our European counterparts need to (with the exception of video calling... yet.)
I guess what I'm saying is that we, as enthusiasts, expect more than the average customer. And as for Cingular / AT&T, of course they don't want to be providing support for an unofficial and likely unfinished rom. Honestly, having inexperienced and impatient Cingular customers reading about this leaked rom and trying to put it on their devices prematurely would certainly cause a terrible amount of problems. Again... it's _leaked_ and _unofficial_, so they should not feel like they have to support it.
Just my 2/3 of a nickel.
GliTCH82 said:
It's the War on Common Sense. And since all of us are a minority here, ignorance and misinformation prevail.
The main reason Big Business does this is because the executives are a much older generation that is scared and terribly confused by the Internet. So to them, we're all looking to ruin their business by making their phones work in ways they didn't intend for them to be used. What they don't know is, our solutions are much better than the ones they provide (hence the void we're filling by being here, supporting, and working out their phones for free) and if they were to release even just half of the ROMs the XDA community cooked up, they'd have a much happier customer base.
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I disagree. I believe the truth is if they released half the roms on here, they're customers WOULD be confused, scared, and lost because they have no idea what rom they should be running. They'd have no idea why something doesn't work perfectly on one rom and better on another. Or why one radio may or may not be better. Think about how many people on here aren't reading everything they need to and bricking or nearly bricking their devices. And these are the ones SEEKING the information. The average 8525 user on Cingular's network isn't quite as interested in this stuff as we are here.
Knowledge is power, but unstable power is chaos.
Think about it.
Xda-Developers is a great source for those seeking to know more about their devices than just its typical uses. But anyone who really wants the knowledge will seek it out and find it (just as we all did). Throwing an incomplete rom at the average lawyer who needs Microsoft Direct Push and not much more is likely to cause more problems than it's worth for AT&Tingular as well as for us (because we'll be the ones trying to clean up the mess).
I think I should sign off on this before I infuriate some of those out there who just want to vent their frustration. And we all know the company with the dollars is always a great target to do that.
Does't surprise me in the slightest.
I am sure many OEMs and phone companies are sick of people bricking their phones and claiming warranties (of course they never admit to using cooked ROMs or even trying to upgrade them - 'Just woke up one morning and it wouldn't boot up').
I enjoy this forum too but don't tell me it doesn't encourage people to do things they shouldn't, and are not willing to take responsiblity for.
esseff said:
I enjoy this forum too but don't tell me it doesn't encourage people to do things they shouldn't, and are not willing to take responsiblity for.
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I have to disagree with that statement... I wasnt aware that giving warnings to the users that flashing their phone could brick it and that they need to read and make sure they fully understand what they are doing before they do it was encouragement... I know that when i came to this board and saw the warnings about flashing cooked roms it freaked me out.. i was registered for several months before i ever made a post, spent countless hours reading all the threads to make sure i fully understood my device before i did anything to it.. its the people that dont read and brick their phone that want to come back and blame us for their mistake.. This is a developers board and quite frankly alot of us go out of the way of development to help people in need... we especially go above and beyond any kind of help that you would recieve from your provider
My 2c
I have to agree with shogunmark. I know I made very sure I read every last thread and wiki before I attempted anything as rash as upgrading a Radio stack. This was because of my fear of bricking the unit, because so many people warned it could. I was even willing to endure the mass "RTFM" and "RTFW" flaming if i wanted to make sure I understood everything correctly before risking my device.
I believe the largest part of this community are users that gather here in the spirit of sharing the knowledge about the device to encourage greater growth of the community- the more people, the more mods & hacks & cracks and experiences will become part of the knowledge base.
yet im still trying to figure out how "MAY BRICK YOUR DEVICE" warnings are encouraging...
Come on guys!
Sure there are countless warinings but simply the enthusiasm and excitement amongst the experienced crew, when a new possibliity appears (GPS, WM6, AKU this, AKU that) causes less experience people to get caught up in it.
I'm not for one minute discouraging XDA developing, just TAKE RESPONSIBLILITY IF YOU BRICK YOUR DEVICE AND DON'T GO CRYING TO THE OEM OR TELCO FOR WARANTY. Pay for your mistake and buy another.
I have seen, on this forum people advising others to go back to their supplier with bricked devices and try to get a warranty. It is hard for the supplier to argue with someone who says their device 'Just stopped working', when infact they bricked it, and in the spirit of good customer relations they often replace it. Why wouldn't suppliers be negative toward forums like these when they are placed in this situation.
Sigh... I've been told that HTC's single greatest returned device is the Wizard followed closely by the Hermes. Reason: bricked.
We post the warnings, but plenty of people don't take the time to fully understand then brick their devices anyway (hermes is especially bad in this respect). Then they try to return them.
In many ways, this is the manufacturer fault b/c they are trying to thwart users who try to upgrade or change their devices. Hermes development feels like spy vs. spy sometimes as we crack something and then the next bootloader/radio bootloader comes out. Consequently pre sspl hermes flashing was damn near rocket science. Problems were rampant. Heck, I even saw one poster try to flash the original signed_nbh into the OS area with the 1.01MFG bootloader
They're all gonna try it. There's no minimum IQ required to be a member here.
Ideally, we need to find a way to bring any HTC device back to life from brick status. It's only corrupted memory after all. If the correct bytes are written, the software works. When I did SE phone hacking, there were such devices. Because of this, users with bricked phones could take them to their nearest SE phone center and they would re-flash and un-brick (for a price of course).
This ridiculous swapping of bricked devices is what needs to change. Posters need to take financial responsibility for phones they brick. HTC needs to make their hardware flashing system available to Operators at phone centers.
Unfortunately, this won't be the case. Instead, they'll go after us because they can see an ROI impact in terms of bricks. What they can't see is the intangible increase in sales that we stimulate or the intangible loss of future revenue that shutting us down represents.
Sign the petition. Get your friends to sign it. Get it posted on other forums. Get it into the news. Operators and M$ need to be able to see this intangible.
on the other hand with the hermes and returns... we just got to a point to where we could brick them less than a month ago... most of the returns before then was by manufacturer fault, i know this because i was one of them, i had a ton of bad blocks in the wrong spot....
its to bad we dont have an easy rom kitchen for these.. something that would make it damn near impossible for the person who cant read to brick their device.. i dont know.. im tired and going back to bad, my post isnt making much sense to me right now
but i do agree with you sleuth!
Wow... check out the attitude here...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294365
Kinda proves my point.
Add a success story here - mainly because I am competent enough to read and ask the right questions when there was vague information.
I am not new to flashing/modding, but the Hermes definately takes it to a new level.
The difference with me, should I ever brick my device - I would just deal with it. I came here with the understanding that the tools available to us come with an increased risk should you not actually understand what you are doing. You need to be aware that you should own up to the possible mistakes and not try to send a bricked device back for warranty....
Two individuals who make this place so great - Pof and Sleuth. Pof has done such a great job with the wiki and his tools - all you need to do is take a few days to read about the device and the steps you need to make. Sleuth brings a different element (and his programs) to the forums and has the patience to point questions to the right areas of the wiki.
My advice - if you plan on unlocking/upgrading take at least a week and read the wiki. Make sure you have all the pieces needed to complete what you want to do. Sync your device and backup all your info - be prepared to hard reset and start from scratch - twice in some cases.
Set aside plenty of time that your phone will be down during this process.
This site is by far the best there is - it's a shame that people rush into things some times.
Sleuth255 said:
Ideally, we need to find a way to bring any HTC device back to life from brick status. It's only corrupted memory after all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC should put JTAG out in its new models
Seriously, it's a big flaw that every official ROM image overwrites th bootloader, even with the same version. The whole firmware history teaches that the bootloader should not be touched by end user.
So, the solution is to make custom ROMs flashable by parts, w/o affecting the bootloader. This should prevent bricking... does not revive existing bricks though...
But your overall point is good: manufacturers get angry because of a lot of returns, and care shell be taken to calm them down.
on another note about the cingular boards... i got banned there was a thread about the lack of good moderation in the HTC board over there, i spoke my piece and got banned... it wasnt even bad, just offered some suggestions.. so much for contructive criticism and free speech..
Somebody knows to tell me, what is the reason that Microsoft will not go to lunch an official rom wm6 for yours prophets!? they are envious what!? -. -
Normally its the responsibility of the hardware builder to release roms for a device.
And offcourse there are several reasons not to do so:
- Licensing, OEM licenses cost money too.
- Develop hours, it cost time to make proper dirvers etc for your hardware
- reason, why would they want to spend above investments on old devices they dont sell anymore
- marketing, why would people by the touch for example if you can do the same with your old prophet
It's funny that some hobbyist people can make an almost stable ROM, without all the resources that HTC has, but HTC does not want to give the ROM to the users. It should take then like 1 month to do a fully functional ROM, given that Wizard "oficial" one was almost perfect.
But you know, it corporations only want your money, and they will only get it if they sell you new phones. I would be happy to even pay a fee (like 50$-100$) for a full ROM, but hey, they earn more on a new phone than on an upgrade ROM.
But still we all want to buy the newest phones not only for the rom.
So for a hardware manufacturer to spend 1 month resources on something else then new phones it can loose them their market share.
So yeah, they will spend their resources on new stuff and keeping old stuff live and kicking.
yeah,thats is stupid,htc have to provide updates and fixes for their devices,and marketing tactics sux.thanks pdaviet pdamobiz gullum and all other rom developers.you are the best,respect for all of you.my device would not be the same without you.keep making roms,keep making people happy
Kaoh said:
But still we all want to buy the newest phones not only for the rom.
So for a hardware manufacturer to spend 1 month resources on something else then new phones it can loose them their market share.
So yeah, they will spend their resources on new stuff and keeping old stuff live and kicking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, but it wouldn't imply HTC to stop developing new phones just to make a ROM for Prophet.
I guess it is easy to get that done by one experienced developed in one month, with full access to hardware details.
Most parts are already developed, like the drivers. He would only have to fix the small bugs that are remaining.
Sure it does, most companies are lacking good staff to develop anything, so you wont spend your limited resources to enhance old stuff.
Just read the shocking news that sonyericsson WILL NOT give any update after the Eclair to the X10 family including the X8.
But all the Android phones they release will have the 2.3.
J read that in sonyericsson UK
That is really a bad news :|
http://www.xperiax10.net/2011/01/06...-will-not-receive-upgrade-to-froyo-or-beyond/
and here
http://www.xperiax10.net/2011/01/06...ys-its-android-2-1-update-is-better-than-2-2/
Long live SE! had great experience with SE but now its finally over bb SE!! till never!!
Any update on Froyo ROM for Xperia X10 mini pro?
Paid upgrade
I can see why phone makers can't keep on updating their phones to new versions of android or any other OS.
Android evolves quickly and to expect constant upgrades to every new version is a bit much. Also: how long should the manufacturer keep upgrading the phone? 1 year? 2? 3?
I know SE has done many things wrong:
Heavy deep customization of the OS (makes upgrades hard).
Very wide line of hardware and regional version variaition in the same product.
Badly managed software team
I am starting to think of phones as computers. If you want to upgrade from windows xp to windows 7 you pay. If we started paying for upgrades we could demand better faster updates and the company would have a financial reason to do the upgrades. I think this is the most reasonable model. The initial phone cost can't justify eternal upgrades IMO.
Hopefully the x10mini will get ROMs soon. In a perfect world SE would leave the phone truly open and hackable anyway.
I wonder if an unofficial froyo was made for the X10 family ,what would the UI looks like?
I hope this is a rumor anyway or that sonyericsson will listen to the complains.
i wrote a petition... i can't post a link 'cause i'm new but...
the link
Www.petitiononline.com/x10free/petition.html
yahona3 said:
the link
Www.petitiononline.com/x10free/petition.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you!!
ptpoul said:
Hopefully the x10mini will get ROMs soon. In a perfect world SE would leave the phone truly open and hackable anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's something I don't understand. Is it common for other manufacturers too? I guess not. I see absolutely no reason for those obstructions. As always if You want sell Your phone then usualy use tools to reflash it back to original FW. Nobody will buy hacked phone for no reason. Make phone open is not disadvantage. Only reason is that SE want us to buy new phones and FW should be one of many reasons. They know potentional of X10 phones and they know it can run even gingerbread without any hassle. So that's the only reason I see, the business.
ptpoul said:
I can see why phone makers can't keep on updating their phones to new versions of android or any other OS.
Android evolves quickly and to expect constant upgrades to every new version is a bit much. Also: how long should the manufacturer keep upgrading the phone? 1 year? 2? 3?
I know SE has done many things wrong:
Heavy deep customization of the OS (makes upgrades hard).
Very wide line of hardware and regional version variaition in the same product.
Badly managed software team
I am starting to think of phones as computers. If you want to upgrade from windows xp to windows 7 you pay. If we started paying for upgrades we could demand better faster updates and the company would have a financial reason to do the upgrades. I think this is the most reasonable model. The initial phone cost can't justify eternal upgrades IMO.
Hopefully the x10mini will get ROMs soon. In a perfect world SE would leave the phone truly open and hackable anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SE said they'd keep working on software updates for (at least? im not sure) 2 years. I do agree that a mediascape-update is quite different from an entire OS-upgrade, but still... The X10 Mini Pro is like 6 months old! What are they thinking of updating for 1.5 year?! The Mediaplayer?!
Still, I've read something about the Mini & Pro being able to get some updates the bigger X10 can't. The topic was about 2.2/2.3 so I just hope this particular post was on-topic. Not quite shure though and I can't find it anymore... :S
ptpoul said:
I can see why phone makers can't keep on updating their phones to new versions of android or any other OS.
Android evolves quickly and to expect constant upgrades to every new version is a bit much. Also: how long should the manufacturer keep upgrading the phone? 1 year? 2? 3?
I know SE has done many things wrong:
Heavy deep customization of the OS (makes upgrades hard).
Very wide line of hardware and regional version variaition in the same product.
Badly managed software team
I am starting to think of phones as computers. If you want to upgrade from windows xp to windows 7 you pay. If we started paying for upgrades we could demand better faster updates and the company would have a financial reason to do the upgrades. I think this is the most reasonable model. The initial phone cost can't justify eternal upgrades IMO.
Hopefully the x10mini will get ROMs soon. In a perfect world SE would leave the phone truly open and hackable anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SE big and rich company, I think that they have enoth money! If we just paid for new update, its not interesting for se. Most interested - to bring new devices with new software! That's all
Sent from my U20i using XDA App
ptpoul said:
I can see why phone makers can't keep on updating their phones to new versions of android or any other OS.
Android evolves quickly and to expect constant upgrades to every new version is a bit much. Also: how long should the manufacturer keep upgrading the phone? 1 year? 2? 3?
I know SE has done many things wrong:
Heavy deep customization of the OS (makes upgrades hard).
Very wide line of hardware and regional version variaition in the same product.
Badly managed software team
I am starting to think of phones as computers. If you want to upgrade from windows xp to windows 7 you pay. If we started paying for upgrades we could demand better faster updates and the company would have a financial reason to do the upgrades. I think this is the most reasonable model. The initial phone cost can't justify eternal upgrades IMO.
Hopefully the x10mini will get ROMs soon. In a perfect world SE would leave the phone truly open and hackable anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my U20a using XDA App
ptpoul said:
I can see why phone makers can't keep on updating their phones to new versions of android or any other OS.
Android evolves quickly and to expect constant upgrades to every new version is a bit much. Also: how long should the manufacturer keep upgrading the phone? 1 year? 2? 3?
I know SE has done many things wrong:
Heavy deep customization of the OS (makes upgrades hard).
Very wide line of hardware and regional version variaition in the same product.
Badly managed software team
I am starting to think of phones as computers. If you want to upgrade from windows xp to windows 7 you pay. If we started paying for upgrades we could demand better faster updates and the company would have a financial reason to do the upgrades. I think this is the most reasonable model. The initial phone cost can't justify eternal upgrades IMO.
Hopefully the x10mini will get ROMs soon. In a perfect world SE would leave the phone truly open and hackable anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes we shouldnt expect infinite upgrades but we should get more than 6 months or so. I think that SE should state how long they should provide support for their products with at least 2 years, as a lot of people have to sign up to plans of this length we they obtain their phone. We all know that these phones are capable of running at least 2.2
Sent from my U20a using XDA App
The other thing that should happen is, if they wont support their phone they should open up the bootloader etc so others like the awesome guys here at XDA can support their phones
Sent from my U20a using XDA App
ptpoul said:
I am starting to think of phones as computers. If you want to upgrade from windows xp to windows 7 you pay. If we started paying for upgrades we could demand better faster updates and the company would have a financial reason to do the upgrades. I think this is the most reasonable model. The initial phone cost can't justify eternal upgrades IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if we had Windows7 phones then yea, I could agree with you, but our phones are essentially Linux powered and Linux is Open source...
I have been running Ubuntu on my laptop for years now and I always get upgraded to the latest version.. free of charge, all SE needs to do is lose the SE bull****, make the phones stock Android (I mean no one buys the phones for timescape) then updates would be easy. (I think thats what they plan to do on their 2nd generation Android phones, I suggest if you want 2.2 or 2.3 you will need to buy a new phone.. the question is wether SE has learnt their lesson with the X10 range.. or if they continue to shoot them selves in the foot with customizations.. I for sure am going to wait a few months before replaceing my X10.. see how the new SE phones are (re bootloader and software) then make my decision on what phone to buy.. I quite like the SE hardware and design (and I was a nokia fan before, but I was sick to death of Symbian) so I have no problems buying an HTC or Samsung next if SE doesn't sort their ****.
anyway.. peace, and hope the our bootloader gets cracked soon.
so let me get this right my x10 mini pro WILL get 2.3 for real???
No .. future releases of new PHONES will get 2.3 according to SE
I was thinking with all this bashing SE thing with the update.. Have we guys ask our selves:
1. When we buy this phone, do SE promise something other than eclair(2.1)
2. when we buy this phone its already 1.6 and they are very transparent with that.
3. do you think SE will upgrade our phone every now and then.
- Linux(Ubuntu) and other alike, gets updated because it is more of a hobby/colaboration of a group "WITHOUT" string attached than commercially produced product(SE). (Correct me if Im wrong but that is only my opinion).
4. Why would they upgrade their product to froyo? you already bought their product, all they need to do is fix bugs/issues that will be found on their current phone with its current OS, either software or Hardware.
5. Upgrading their phone will only make it harder, since they have to support existing user with 1.6, 2.1 and now 2.2 (if froyo will ever get out).
6. So why not make it hackable or install Basic Android.? They will not. because, it will make it harder for them to Identify who's the culprit if they're product/phone dies. They can do it, but they'll have to remove the "support" for their phone.
Guys, Its not that I don't want Froyo or latest software be pushed on my device, but at-least we should also be reasonable with our wishes.
Do you guys, really want Froyo on our X10 Mini, or Do you want Froyo or 2.3 on next generation X10 Mini?
But still want froyo on my x10 mini. hahahahahah
@pongscript
If you take a look, all most all the manufacturers have updated their sets with Froyo, if they can do it, why can't SE? They are not smaller then others, right?
Also if they update the versions all together than the don't have to worry of supporting an outdated version, which would have well known unresolved bugs
Keeping the system updated should not be such not a big deal! They already have all the drivers and stuffs, They just need to make a build with all the updates and put it up in the server. if the XDA guys can do that without having access to all of the necessary drivers and stuffs, WHY IN THE HELL with all the access they can't do it!??
- Linux(Ubuntu) and other alike, gets updated because it is more of a hobby/colaboration of a group "WITHOUT" string attached than commercially produced product(SE). (Correct me if Im wrong but that is only my opinion).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong, There are few people works out of hobby yes, but in the core there are dedicated people and groups. For Ubuntu its Canonical who provides commercial support and also have a big community support. Also take a look at Redhat Linux.
@TheGame316
PC and Smart phones are not same, yet. In PC you can change the bootloader at your will but in phones you can not as most of the smart phones are locked down (Except Google Nexus series and HTC I think). So you cannot update yourself. If they want to charge for update, they also should free up the boot loaders, so that I can do my own upgrades. But it they are keeping the boot loaders locked, They are bound to give me my upgrades cause they are not letting me do that. Period.
If they decides to dump us then just give us option so that we can get rid of their trash and update our system by ourselves. If they had done that with X10's then I would understand. But they wont do that. And that's why I am dumping them from my buying list next time.
tmahmood said:
Keeping the system updated should not be such not a big deal! They already have all the drivers and stuffs, They just need to make a build with all the updates and put it up in the server. if the XDA guys can do that without having access to all of the necessary drivers and stuffs, WHY IN THE HELL with all the access they can't do it!??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think, the answer..its a big issue its because it more of a business thing rather than community work, we here at xda help each other to benefit one another, and but SE as a commercial corporation only goes for the money, other than that they don't have any use for us. yeah, SE might be an evil, but every company is like that, not all company update their phone, actually good phone will never got/or should not be updated. but I guess in android world its different.
Its not that Im on SE side, nor any companies side, but I guess if they always keep up with android, additional man power for development will be needed which equals to extra cost. other business induce this kind of practice to be competitive but in long term it is not very reasonable. android is kind of past phase software evolution.
In reality, X10 mini is a success story which does not really succeed. they fail when they try to copy non-replacable battery of IPhone. same view point that tells you, you will not have the same phone after a couple of years.
But who does not want the next generation x10 mini. if they focus more on current mini they might not have enough people to work for other new device.
Im quite contented with My X10 mini, as long as the phone works upgrade is just a bonus but not a necessity. New update will only make the battery go bad, because you have to explore it again- and again for new thing. heheheheh..
tmahmood said:
Wrong, There are few people works out of hobby yes, but in the core there are dedicated people and groups. For Ubuntu its Canonical who provides commercial support and also have a big community support. Also take a look at Redhat Linux.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok Got it, thank for correction, though on red-hat you need to buy license for support(but not for software), support including updates for issues. our company have these type of license, but there is no real life use for this. some update is only to support new hardware. which is not currently being used by our company.
But In the end, we all want to force SE to give us froyo. but what does froyo have that really worth it.