Hey all,
I've been a lurker for a while, been looking for a way to encourage the now Google-owned Motorola Mobility to unlock their bootloaders much like HTC has wisely done, but it's becoming more and more obvious to me that they don't care about the "minority" of us that actually feels as though we are entitled to full admin rights on our phones that we either paid a ton of cash for, or signed a lengthy contract to obtain. Verizon is the one blocking it? HTC found a way, and so can Motorola Mobility...that is cop-out.
My proposal is that there be an effort to unlocked the bootloader, I am not some expert programmer, and I am open to whatever will help the cause. I know there was a bounty on it, but to me this isn't about money, I'll donate time, money, information ripped from my phone if it, in some way, contributes to unlocked that bootloader. Even if you need my unused CPU cycles to calculate things, I don't care, just tell me what I can to do help, because I am sick of not being able to use my phone to it's fully potential.
Maybe I am being naive, but I believe if we all worked together we could accomplish this goal. If you agree, please, let's organize and figure this out!
-Joshua
I love optimism
I'm down with the movement...
This phone does have mad potential to be so limited compared to other phones.
I just can't believe that we are running an unofficial, incomplete version of CM7 and it runs smoother than stock Blur.
Is that telling you something about Motorola?
Do you guys think Google will make that decision for Motorola or will Moto stay the same?
Sent from my Android
Worth a try...
Re: Google changing Moto policy
I don't know so much about Google changing Motorola's stance on the locked bootloader, we've tried petitioning the company themselves, but have we tried petitioning Google? Or maybe it's too soon, maybe they are working on it right now? Hard to tell, and I don't want to put pressure on Google too soon especially if they are trying diligently right now to do the right thing.
But the above poster is right, cracking it ourselves is definitely worth a try. I have contacts (unfortunately know inside Motorola), I know people with lots of knowledge on encryption, I'll be honest one of my friends does have a knack for the impossible, but this would be too much for one lone person. I also have a few computers in the house, to donate computing power. None above 5 GB of RAM unfortunately, but my friend with all of that know-how does also have a synchronous 20/mbit up/down connection to the net, if that helps, and I have another friend that is the linux admin at a an unnamed private university in Durham that might could lend a hand in some way.
We have the resources, we just need to pool them.
Someone with the realistic technical know-how, just tell us where to begin, and the shortest path to getting to our goal and we'll do all we can to contribute!
Thanks for understanding and not just writing this off as a pipe-dream...because I know if we work together we can accomplish almost anything.
-Joshua
spyda256 said:
I don't know so much about Google changing Motorola's stance on the locked bootloader, we've tried petitioning the company themselves, but have we tried petitioning Google? Or maybe it's too soon, maybe they are working on it right now? Hard to tell, and I don't want to put pressure on Google too soon especially if they are trying diligently right now to do the right thing.
But the above poster is right, cracking it ourselves is definitely worth a try. I have contacts (unfortunately know inside Motorola), I know people with lots of knowledge on encryption, I'll be honest one of my friends does have a knack for the impossible, but this would be too much for one lone person. I also have a few computers in the house, to donate computing power. None above 5 GB of RAM unfortunately, but my friend with all of that know-how does also have a synchronous 20/mbit up/down connection to the net, if that helps, and I have another friend that is the linux admin at a an unnamed private university in Durham that might could lend a hand in some way.
We have the resources, we just need to pool them.
Someone with the realistic technical know-how, just tell us where to begin, and the shortest path to getting to our goal and we'll do all we can to contribute!
Thanks for understanding and not just writing this off as a pipe-dream...because I know if we work together we can accomplish almost anything.
-Joshua
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i love your optimism i have some old pms that may help with the effort
SHA-1 brute force can be cracked for around $2 of Amazon cloud computing service.
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/r...for-2-10-with-amazons-cloud-service-20101122/
Isn't boot loader use SHA-1 encryption?
(of course, the key may be much longer, but it may not be impossible for cheap. I say try to pool together like $100 and try Amazon cloud computing a try?)
Re: Amazon
hpark21:
I like the way you're thinking, does anyone else think this might be a good call? I know there was a bounty of around ~$800 somewhere, so I doubt if all of us who rightfully were promised and unlocked bootloader wouldn't mind pooling a bit of money for the computing power, hell I myself would give $50 to the effort if we knew it was a viable solution.
Other thoughts?
Also, ztotherad, if you could send me those PMs maybe we can sift through those and see if there are some other avenues, nothing is off the table at this point.
thanks again for coming together on this, that is the true meaning of community.
spyda256 said:
hpark21:
I like the way you're thinking, does anyone else think this might be a good call? I know there was a bounty of around ~$800 somewhere, so I doubt if all of us who rightfully were promised and unlocked bootloader wouldn't mind pooling a bit of money for the computing power, hell I myself would give $50 to the effort if we knew it was a viable solution.
Other thoughts?
Also, ztotherad, if you could send me those PMs maybe we can sift through those and see if there are some other avenues, nothing is off the table at this point.
thanks again for coming together on this, that is the true meaning of community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i can def send you them, idk how much help theyll be
Uh, I think it's already been established that brute forcing it is impossible.
Stuckinabox said:
Uh, I think it's already been established that brute forcing it is impossible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In one of the many threads concerning bootloader unlocks, I believe the chances of us finding it were determined to be 1mill:1. It would take us over a decade to manually come up with the key. I don't want to kill confidence, but I'd like to keep things relatively rational.
Sent from my MB870 using xda premium
Stuckinabox said:
Uh, I think it's already been established that brute forcing it is impossible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it's been established that brute forcing is nearly impossible, not completely impossible
it is something that would take an insane amount of resources to accomplish , and/or time ,
it would really come down to "how lucky are we?" really, as in::: how lucky are we that we stumble across or know a genius that can crack it, stumble across needed files, etc...
good luck to all who try, I wish I could do anything to get us there, but I don't know the first thing when it comes to this stuff, don't give up the dream!
Basically, what it comes down to is:
Find out what their hash key is. (encrypted password)
Then, try to go through all valid characters and see whether the input matches the output hash.
If one is lucky and they used short enough password, then it will be quick to find.
If unlucky and they used really long password, then the answer is that we won't be able to find it in REASONABLE time. (I would say 1-2 months to be reasonable - at $2/hr, it would cost $48/ day).
Only issue is when do we stop?
hpark21 said:
Basically, what it comes down to is:
Find out what their hash key is. (encrypted password)
Then, try to go through all valid characters and see whether the input matches the output hash.
If one is lucky and they used short enough password, then it will be quick to find.
If unlucky and they used really long password, then the answer is that we won't be able to find it in REASONABLE time. (I would say 1-2 months to be reasonable - at $2/hr, it would cost $48/ day).
Only issue is when do we stop?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There was some kind of crazy algorithm applied to each character to generate the correct item for each number of the key, correct? We would have to come up with that too?
Sent from my MB870 using xda premium
THANK YOU! Finally ... a revived movement. I pledged $100 on another thread and I'm good for putting it toward an unlocked bootloader again!
To learn from one of the most influential groups of our generation ... anonymous utilizes botnets to pool computing resources ... if we get a tool that could function similarly, could we not pool 1000s of computers together to crack it faster? It would make what is not feasible for a small set of computers to do... feasible. If all most users have to do is download a tool that gives us access to processing power and bandwidth ... users will download the hell out of it.
Count me in.
[ sent from _base2 ]
Hope
I understand doubters, and odds are likely against us, but that's ok, no one person can do it, and maybe not just one method, but somehow we WILL get to our goal. Whether Motorola capitulates or we find a method to crack it, we will not have this awesome hardware go to waste.
I am not generally a "black hat" kind of person, but in this case we are in the right so far as I am concerned (please don't quote DMCA BS to me, lol) because they made a promise to their customers, and it will be kept, whether they like it or not.
So, I am with the above poster that mention he didn't know quite where to start, or where we have already made progress, but if someone can help us out, explain the process, we figure out how to move forward. (Please forgive the run-on sentence).
I've minimal experience programming, only VB.net, C++, and a bit of Java from college, and I do tier 2 desktop support for a bank these days, but on my off time I'd love to spend it on something worthwhile, all of you deserve this, and we'll make it happen.
Maybe it's the troubleshooter in me that sees the problem and says "oh no, there's a way, we just need to find it". I have a colleague, the one I spoke of before, he has a knack for doing incredible things, so once we have a breakdown of what we need to do, perhaps he can be of help.
So my friends, where do we go from here?
spyda256 said:
I understand doubters, and odds are likely against us, but that's ok, no one person can do it, and maybe not just one method, but somehow we WILL get to our goal. Whether Motorola capitulates or we find a method to crack it, we will not have this awesome hardware go to waste.
I am not generally a "black hat" kind of person, but in this case we are in the right so far as I am concerned (please don't quote DMCA BS to me, lol) because they made a promise to their customers, and it will be kept, whether they like it or not.
So, I am with the above poster that mention he didn't know quite where to start, or where we have already made progress, but if someone can help us out, explain the process, we figure out how to move forward. (Please forgive the run-on sentence).
I've minimal experience programming, only VB.net, C++, and a bit of Java from college, and I do tier 2 desktop support for a bank these days, but on my off time I'd love to spend it on something worthwhile, all of you deserve this, and we'll make it happen.
Maybe it's the troubleshooter in me that sees the problem and says "oh no, there's a way, we just need to find it". I have a colleague, the one I spoke of before, he has a knack for doing incredible things, so once we have a breakdown of what we need to do, perhaps he can be of help.
So my friends, where do we go from here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sir, did you get my pms?
Re: PMs
Nope, just saw them, thanks for that!
Hello All,
This past summer, I formed a focus group consisting of university students from various technology disciplines. Together, we conducted an analysis on what businesses and individuals need in order to get started with NFC. Our findings developed our first hypothesis. The team then put its findings into motion by creating a business model canvas, cloud based product and conducting many interviews with potential users.
The technology start-up community here in Helsinki has a keen bias toward learning and adopting “The Lean Start-up” methodology for building successful products. Indeed, I find myself supporting many of the principles and ideas that Eric Ries proposes. Currently, my project is in stealth mode. Nonetheless, I have been actively building product concepts and things are gaining momentum.
If it's anything to gauge things by, just last night me and my buddies were counting how many NFC cards we already have in our wallets. NFC is really moving rapidly here in Finland. In my case, I had 3. One was for the "K" chain of stores, a monthly bus card and the last one was for the gym.
Right now, I'm looking for a person that knows how to code Android. I need a small app built and it probably can be done in about 8 hours or so, depending upon the persons level of expertise. Here's what the app needs to be able to do.
Nutshell version:
1. When the app is launched it automatically logs into the users account and knows who you are.
2. When the users touches a NFC tag the UID is read and sent to the backend via https.
3. Our backend server takes the UID and provisions it accordingly.
4. Once provisioned, confirmation is sent to the app which instructs the user to touch the tag again in order to write it.
Right now we are just concerned with building the minimal viable product as regards this app.
The next step will be to tie everything we already have together with the app and beta testing it through pilot projects we have lined up.
The purpose of this thread is to find out from others where I can find someone skilled enough to help me with building this app. I thought I could do it myself using tools like "appinventor" from MIT but that didn't work for me.
Anyway, if you are interested in learning more please drop me a note.
Thank you for your interest,
Suomalainen
I'm not saying it is overly complicated but, it will take more than 8 hours to get this thing to a working product. Not only is there the task of setting up the back-end of the app but also the layout of it. You then have to consider how it will talk to the server as any thing other than a basic webview, which completely defeats the point and purpose of a stand-alone app, requires use of web services which will require the setup and integration of said service.
Point is, it's much more complicated and involved than you seem to understand. Good luck with your project but you might take some time researching what it is you're wanting so as to better comprehend the time and effort involved.
Actually it's not that bad as you think. The web service is up and running. Now I need an app to get the UID from the tag and send it over to the web service so it can be provisioned. Once that's done on the back end the back end then sends a confirmation to the app to write the tag.
Does this help you?
Suomalainen said:
Actually it's not that bad as you think. The web service is up and running. Now I need an app to get the UID from the tag and send it over to the web service so it can be provisioned. Once that's done on the back end the back end then sends a confirmation to the app to write the tag.
Does this help you?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, if you've gone that far the only other question I have is, why not finish it out? If all you wish to do is read an NFC tag and pull then send its UID to the web service, you should be able to do so at this point. The android tutorials cover basic NFC use which is what you are trying to accomplish.
There may be some confusion?
I thought in the opening intro I wrote that I explained trying to build it with MIT appinventor?
You wrote "I thought I could do it myself using tools like "appinventor" from MIT but that didn't work for me.". So it sounds like you hadn't made much progress and/or thought about not using appinventor. Are you still trying to do this using appinventor or do you want to build a native Android application?
I would like to have a Native Android App. I'm not a coder but wanted to take on the challenge using the Appinventor tool but found it would not work for me. Now, I'm just looking for a person that knows they can code the app and can get it to do what we need it to do.
Are you looking to pay a developer for this work? if so, I could probably take a look.
@ wseemann, Thanks for the offer! Right now the team that I have put together has been formed by folks interested in NFC. Each person contributes to the team a unique piece of his/her expertise toward our end goals and vision... The obvious hope being to get this "startup" off the ground...
Suomalainen said:
@ wseemann, Thanks for the offer! Right now the team that I have put together has been formed by folks interested in NFC. Each person contributes to the team a unique piece of his/her expertise toward our end goals and vision... The obvious hope being to get this "startup" off the ground...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, good luck.
Thanks! Please also feel free to pass along the word to your friends and others you feel may be interested. Feel free to message me as well.
Thanks again!
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
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Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
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A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
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orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
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Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
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Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
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+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
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Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
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Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
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What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
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