So I'm loving this One, but some of the stock apps I'm not liking (primarily MMS, mail, browser, keyboard, launcher)
I've installed Nova, Chrome, Swiftkey, chomp, and gmail, which are doing a great job of replacing and I've nearly got the phone in a good place.
My problem is that the Sense lockscreen still shows the stock apps, including indicators for new text messages i've already read via chomp. Now that I'm using Nova Launcher, I can't figure out how to modify the sense lockscreen to change the apps that are at the base there.
Almost all of this is being done because while I like blinkfeed enough, I already use Flipboard and don't want that as my initial screen and it seems like Sense isn't going to allow us to have a more traditional homescreen with blinkfeed to the left or right. I'm also not a huge fan of swapping between modes of blinkfeed+icons and traditional home screen.
I'm posting this here in T-mo General looking for advice because flashing another ROM isn't an option for me. My understanding is that flashing a ROM will lose the wifi calling capability, and that is really important for me. What would you guys do?
You should only lose wifi calling if you flash a AOSP based ROM. I understand that you want to "de-sense" you're phone so an AOSP ROM would be your best bet.
This phone is brand new so development is still slow right now but I bet you should start seeing some Sense-based ROM's without all the Sense bloat start popping up soon
In regards to your lockscreen issue, have you looked into using a lockscreen replacement like WidgetLocker?
Did you replace the icons in the dock on Rosie (Sense launcher).
I'm still using the Sense launcher and my lockscreen shows what I have on my dock.
Sent from my HTC One using xda premium
elterible said:
You should only lose wifi calling if you flash a AOSP based ROM. I understand that you want to "de-sense" you're phone so an AOSP ROM would be your best bet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Won't you potentially also lose some camera and other specialized functionality relative to the hardware?
That is correct. You will just have stock android camera without Zoe and all that jazz
I usually always go AOSP but I really like the camera features here. Gonna be a tough call
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
diabloescobar said:
My understanding is that flashing a ROM will lose the wifi calling capability, and that is really important for me. What would you guys do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You will lose wifi calling if you flash a non-tmobile rom, like one of the M7 HTC One roms or an AT&T rom.
elterible said:
That is correct. You will just have stock android camera without Zoe and all that jazz
I usually always go AOSP but I really like the camera features here. Gonna be a tough call
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible to flash the camera apk? is there a camera apk or is it part of sense itself?
I'm gonna take an educated guess based on my experience with Samsung. Usually custom camera apps are deeply integrated in custom android versions (sense, tw, etc). You can pull the apk and may even get it to install but my guess is that it will FC
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
If you look in the AT&T sub forum of the One, there is a ahpla of CM10.1 which means that CM10.1 is being worked on right now for the One. I am sure it will work with all HTC Ones once it is done. I would give it a month or two and we should be pretty good off. It is still really early in the game.
Related
Is there anyway to completely remove sense from the flyer?
Or a rom that is just stock honeycomb without sense?
I'm talking about everything, even the menus.
Possible, but lots of work and not likely. No benefit to it,
The so called stock, AOSP ROM is a myth. There is no such thing. No functional ROM without the hardware vendors files and code that interface the hardware to the rest of the OS. What Google produces as Android runs on no actual device , none , nada. It's only the GUI and API. Leaving the kernel, and drivers and radio sections at a minimum to the hardware builders.
Thanks for the quick reply. Just didn't want to waste time if it wasn't a simple rom
The following custom ROM removes some Sense elements. As I haven't tried it myself, don't know if the menus are re-themed to look more AOSP.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1411170
As already mentioned, the Sense framework is deeply integrated into the ROM, so removing it is a lot of work, as is porting in vanilla Android elements.
But my main point is that it gains you nothing and lose lots (pen, notes integration, widgets). No speed, no memory (we got lots) . and you can have the look without doing anything hard, you don't even need to root.
I already got your main point. No need to rehash it. I agree the the Flyer has enough CPU and memory muscle to run Sense smoothly, which was not the case with past devices, especially phones (but even newer phones are starting to have the specs to run Sense very smoothly). But many people just don't like the Sense aesthetics and prefer the Vanilla Android look. I was just addressing the original question by the OP.
For some reason, I like the look of stock HC much better. It's sleeker. Sense is very bubbly looking.
Also, it's very annoying that I'm missing the core android apps like email, calendar, internet.
The menus in HC look much sleeker than sense, which is cluttered with large fonts
DigitalMD said:
Possible, but lots of work and not likely. No benefit to it,
The so called stock, AOSP ROM is a myth. There is no such thing. No functional ROM without the hardware vendors files and code that interface the hardware to the rest of the OS. What Google produces as Android runs on no actual device , none , nada. It's only the GUI and API. Leaving the kernel, and drivers and radio sections at a minimum to the hardware builders.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct me if im wrong but isnt CM stock AOSP? then again you may be right cause CM9 sounds soo good it might as well be mythical lol
If you do a little research you will find that you can customize the fonts and backgrounds and many other aspects of sense or any launcher you choose. You can also switch launchers if you like, even on the fly. You don;t need a new ROM to do that. its personal preference, but I love the Sense widgets and for me , they do more and function better than stock which I find boring and for example stock email, not very good.
---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------
truthkillszz said:
Correct me if im wrong but isnt CM stock AOSP? then again you may be right cause CM9 sounds soo good it might as well be mythical lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK let me correct you. CM7 and now CM9 are far far from stock. That was the intent and that is their appeal. They are based around non-stock launchers, ADW for CM7 and Tribuche for CM9 and have countless mods, additions and special features that are not stock.
And Motorola CEO (now owned by Goggle) has declared that the "mythical AOSP ROM does not exist" and nobody wants boring stock Andorid devices.
So it must be true......
At any rate , expect Google to add in even more vendor customization hooks so that vendors can differentiate their products.
In my opinion the sense launcher is just better than the stock hc. I like stock browser more than HTC browser, as well as keyboard. So I switch out the bits and pieces I like. There will never be an asop room for this device. To each his or her own but the pieces to modify your set up are available if you look. Pick and choose what fits your preference
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
The sense widgets aren't resizable, that's their main issue.
I do like the HTC launcher though.
Any suggestions on how to get the stock menus? Or not simple enough? I know how to load most of the stock apps
Stock menus is not easy, and I do not believe anyone had managed it yet
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
stock menus, no, but there is a entire thread on mods and skinning sense on XDA somewhere
cpufreak3 said:
For some reason, I like the look of stock HC much better. It's sleeker. Sense is very bubbly looking.
Also, it's very annoying that I'm missing the core android apps like email, calendar, internet.
The menus in HC look much sleeker than sense, which is cluttered with large fonts
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do you differentiate between sense and hc? You can't ”uninstall” it, so how what is ”stock hc” and how can/does it look any different?
JB
Sent from my PG41200 using xda premium
I would assume talking about launcher, widgets, and apps like email.
Sent from my HTC Flyer P510e using xda premium
IF you look at the Acer A100, it uses the stock HC launcher. Not a lot of difference, but you don;t get the Sense widgets, Instead there are some stock HC widgets and some Acer widgets.
If you look in the LeeDroid HC thread, you see that Lee has included the stock HC launcher in his ROM and you cna switch between stock and HTC. There are also some neat tweaks for the app drawer there
For those of you looking for some serious GUI tweaks and lots of options, keep an eye on Paul of MoDaCo fame here on this thread. Once he gives Flyer HC the MRC treatment , you will be in for a treat.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1251165
I'm currently on LeeDrOiD's Gingerbread, rooted and all. I installed "System app remover" and it was easy to remove the Sense lockscreen. After reboot, I now have the raw Android lockscreen. In this advanced app remover, the actual "Sense" is listed, but it warns me that it's a "key module". If I remove it and reboot, will I get freeze and need to re-roll and old Nandroid backup? Just curious. And oh, I'm not really asking for user interface (running different launcher anyways), but it's really more about the fact that rumor has it that the Sense backbone is what's making HTC devices having problem with certain Bluetooth devices, for instance the Wii remote controller, which will not pair as easily on e.g. my Galaxy S3 LTE. On HTC phones, you need to install extra bloat software etc. So, any ideas?
Ok, so I know this is a hugely personal thing, but, will you keep Touchwiz or use a custom launcher?
Personally, I don't like the look of Touchwiz at all. With that in mind one of the great ICS launchers (Nova and Apex) should seem like an easy decision!?
The thing is I am not sure how many of the new features you may lose out on by giving up on Touchwiz... will features like SmartAlert and SmartStay still work?
edcoppen said:
Ok, so I know this is a hugely personal thing, but, will you keep Touchwiz or use a custom launcher?
Personally, I don't like the look of Touchwiz at all. With that in mind one of the great ICS launchers (Nova and Apex) should seem like an easy decision!?
The thing is I am not sure how many of the new features you may lose out on by giving up on Touchwiz... will features like SmartAlert and SmartStay still work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I as well will be changing the launcher. Yes, your extra Touchwiz like features will remain (ie SmartStay, SmartAlert, and the redesigned apps such messaging and the settings and the drop down notification shade) as those are baked into the firmware. The only you thing you might (and probably WILL) be losing are your Touchwiz widgets and from past experience with them that's not a deal breaker at all.
I will say one thing as someone who's deciding between the HOX and the SGSIII that I'm a bit disappointed that Touchwiz hasn't matured quite the same way that Sense has. Sense just plain looks nicer and you can clearly see the ICS undertones. I feel like ICS has been buried beneath Touchwiz. And I don't like that :-(
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
I always use Go Launcher EX on any of my phones
In all honesty I'll either stick with touchwiz or use spb shell 3d which I already have on my tablet.
Sent from my Vega using Tapatalk 2
Depends on if it finally able to sort apps by alphabetical order.
AllGamer said:
I always use Go Launcher EX on any of my phones
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1000 GoEx on all our devices.
Nova launcher ftw
sent a 96gb N7000
I've used various launchers but nothing covers up Touch wiz completely, which is why I use custom roms.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
hawken84 said:
I've used various launchers but nothing covers up Touch wiz completely, which is why I use custom roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what elements of touchwiz remain after changing launcher?
edcoppen said:
So what elements of touchwiz remain after changing launcher?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
none. unless he means the theme itself.
I used a custom launcher on my S2. However looking at Touchwiz on the S3, I quite like it. It looks alot nicer.
I`ll probably keep it until I want more options and theming.
ekjl said:
I used a custom launcher on my S2. However looking at Touchwiz on the S3, I quite like it. It looks alot nicer.
I`ll probably keep it until I want more options and theming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that's exactly it. I am judging it before I have had time with it. My new approach will be to keep it until I don't like it!
Depends on two factors:
1. How good the tw widgets are (some of them are good!)
2. Whether I need more ram (tw is a memory hog), and whether tw is butter smooth (I'm guessing this iteration is!).
oswade said:
Depends on two factors:
1. How good the tw widgets are (some of them are good!)
2. Whether I need more ram (tw is a memory hog), and whether tw is butter smooth (I'm guessing this iteration is!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i never put a custom gb rom on my gs2, but i have put the att leak and now aokp on it. i have less memory now than i did with stock att plus tw. my experiences may very well vary from others.
Gene_Bailey said:
I as well will be changing the launcher. Yes, your extra Touchwiz like features will remain (ie SmartStay, SmartAlert, and the redesigned apps such messaging and the settings and the drop down notification shade) as those are baked into the firmware. The only you thing you might (and probably WILL) be losing are your Touchwiz widgets and from past experience with them that's not a deal breaker at all.
I will say one thing as someone who's deciding between the HOX and the SGSIII that I'm a bit disappointed that Touchwiz hasn't matured quite the same way that Sense has. Sense just plain looks nicer and you can clearly see the ICS undertones. I feel like ICS has been buried beneath Touchwiz. And I don't like that :-(
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tell me, where is the ICS part in the new Sense?
No widgets in the app drawer, look and feel of GoLauncherEx.
wtf!?!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA
AllGamer said:
I always use Go Launcher EX on any of my phones
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Likewise. TW will be the very first thing I change when setting up my phone and will be replaced with Go Launcher EX lol
If the phone shows zero signs of lag - I will likely keep the stock launcher. Just rooted to ditch bloat apps.
touch wiz launcher is just a part of all the software customizations packed. if you replace the laucher you will still have the rest of touch wiz package like music player, radio etc etc
If the phone shows zero signs of lag - I will likely keep the stock launcher. Just rooted to ditch bloat apps.
bala_gamer said:
touch wiz launcher is just a part of all the software customizations packed. if you replace the laucher you will still have the rest of touch wiz package like music player, radio etc etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At last someone who knows what they are on about!
@all.......Touchwiz is the whole ui interface, not just the launcher, and it sucks if you have ever been on a CM ROM
Sent from my GT-I9000 using xda premium
Just a quick question here, something which takes me a while when setting up a new Rom.
Is there anything which can copy your homescreens layout and then restore it after flashing a new Rom?
Titanium puts the exact apks back in the system with the same data but it'd be nice to have something to put the folders and apps back too.
Any ideas?
Based on sense roms ICS.
CHEERS.
Sent by EVO 3D powered carrier pigeons
4Ext recovery control does. Advanced backup selecting only data and flash new rom, then restore data partition
schmeggy929 said:
4Ext recovery control does. Advanced backup selecting only data and flash new rom, then restore data partition
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How well does this work?
abdeviation said:
How well does this work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've heard doing that works well since it restores home screens, apps, and data, but can cause problems if restoring data between roms, especially between odex and deodex.
You may want to consider a different launcher like ADW EX or Apex. Both have backup and restore capabilities built in.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
schmeggy929 said:
4Ext recovery control does. Advanced backup selecting only data and flash new rom, then restore data partition
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My apologies, maybe I should have been more precise with what I asked, I automatically assumed that everyone would do at least a superwipe prior to flashing a new Rom, you can't report issues without it.
So to reiterate, is there a way to get your home screens back the way they were after a superwipe?, Its only as it is a pain in the arse to get it back to normal again.
but ill give that a whirl anyway,
Cheers.
Sent by EVO 3D powered carrier pigeons
coal686 said:
You may want to consider a different launcher like ADW EX or Apex. Both have backup and restore capabilities built in.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only use sense. Nothing comes close.
Sent by EVO 3D powered carrier pigeons
dladz said:
I only use sense. Nothing comes close.
Sent by EVO 3D powered carrier pigeons
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand the loyalty, especially on ICS. But I purchased ADW EX when it was 10 cents and have now been playing with Apex Launcher and they are smooth. If you miss the sense widgets, Android Pro Widgets (for agenda, friendstream, etc) and Beautiful Widgets (for the clock) are good substitutes.
Having said that, I currently run Sense too, so like I said, I understand your reluctance to switch.
coal686 said:
I understand the loyalty, especially on ICS. But I purchased ADW EX when it was 10 cents and have now been playing with Apex Launcher and they are smooth. If you miss the sense widgets, Android Pro Widgets (for agenda, friendstream, etc) and Beautiful Widgets (for the clock) are good substitutes.
Having said that, I currently run Sense too, so like I said, I understand your reluctance to switch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea I hear you there, but it isn't just the widgets its the whole feel of it, even the phone book is better, on stock all you get is a line of code which would normally link to fb.
Sense integrates everything really well, and they have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of performance.
I do sometimes make the switch to the stock look but I'm always drawn back.
Thanks tho m8
Sent by EVO 3D powered carrier pigeons
dladz said:
Yea I hear you there, but it isn't just the widgets its the whole feel of it, even the phone book is better, on stock all you get is a line of code which would normally link to fb.
Sense integrates everything really well, and they have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of performance.
I do sometimes make the switch to the stock look but I'm always drawn back.
Thanks tho m8
Sent by EVO 3D powered carrier pigeons
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not trying to convince you to change, but fyi, the launchers I mentioned still allow use of the sense apps, just not the widgets. So, the phone book, dialer, gallery, camera app, etc are still sense. They do not require you to use any stock ASOP apps.
Is there any way to disable Sense if I'm using Nova or another 3rd-party launcher? I still have Sense running in the background eating up resources even though I'm not using it... ugh.
No sir.... Best bet is to flash the somesense Rom and use a custom launcher. The only other way to do it is through an aosp Rom. Currently we have a pretty smooth cm9 in the dev section, but it doesn't have a few vital things working yet
Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE
That sucks, but thanks very much for the info
darkfire23 said:
Is there any way to disable Sense if I'm using Nova or another 3rd-party launcher? I still have Sense running in the background eating up resources even though I'm not using it... ugh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can freeze our uninstall the sense launcher along with any apps/widgets you don't use if you have a third party launcher installed. I've done this. I wouldn't go uninstalling things without knowing what it is first.
Sent from my El Tevo
That requires root I assume?
Yes and a lot of research as you might disable a vital component on accident and then you have to really flash a new Rom.
Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE
darkfire23 said:
That requires root I assume?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, to freeze sense and other widgets u need to root. Wish u didn't. Hate having to give up twc tv on phone and renting movies thru google play. But I guess torrents and better multitasking will make up for it...
Sent from my EVO using XDA
As stated above, you must be rooted to do this stuff, but in case you wanted to know...
I uninstalled just about every sense element I could find in TitaniumBackup and use Apex launcher in place of the stock one. Interestingly, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the stock ICS lockscreen popped up after uninstalling the sense lockscreen, so I don't have to run any 3rd party LS app. Also I have uninstalled the stock browser and clock, replacing them with the apks I pulled from CM9, mostly because I like the look and feel a little better, but also sense alarm wouldn't display on the ICS LS--CM9 alarm does. I had the CM9 message app on my LTE also, but found I was unable to send or receive MMS. I didn't really investigate too much further to try to get it working and I don't know if it is even possible. EX Dialer offers a more appealing phone app than does the sense version as far as I'm concerned.
There are ways to make your phone look differently, but as you said sense eats up the background, and I feel the CM9 apps run a little lighter. I enjoy a much better experience without the Sense stuff as it feels a little closer to AOSP now.
Good luck should you decide to try some of the suggestions, and remember, always always have a backup.
How did you remove the location icon?
Art2Fly said:
No sir.... Best bet is to flash the somesense Rom and use a custom launcher. The only other way to do it is through an aosp Rom. Currently we have a pretty smooth cm9 in the dev section, but it doesn't have a few vital things working yet
Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What kind of vital things? Is it stable enought to use as a daily?
The part of sense that is still running is the 35MB shell or so of basic sense functionality throughout the whole phone.
You're not able to get rid of that, but if you use another launcher you already not loading up the launcher portion of sense. If you used the sense launcher, you'd see Sense go up to over 100MB, since the basic sense of 35 + the launcher of about 70 something will kick you over 100MB. So the fact that it still sits in the 30s shows you're not using the launcher, but Apex or Nova or whatever is probably taking up 50-70MB itself.
Right, so really no win unless you root and disable... thanks for the input all.
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions &
Read the Forum Rules Ref Posting
Thanks ✟
Moving to Q&A
@jimotoxxx
Thanks for your post. I like AOSP so much better, and hadn't even thought of removing htclockscreen and also using click and browser. Gonna give it a shot. Can't wait til we get AOKP functional.
sent from a shining jewel 4g LTE
Hey there.
This is NOT a "WHAT IS BEST ROM" thread, as has been posted earlier on. I'm simply asking what ROMs I could look into as there are SO many to choose from.
Currently, I'm running Stock 4.1.1 using the JB Domination theme mod and Siyah Kernel. I love Siyah and wish to keep that, but I'd like to have a ROM that gives me more freedom. I have tried CM10 before, and it was missing way too much of the good stuff for me to want to continue using it. I find TouchWiz pretty ugly, hence why I switched to JB Domination and that does solve some of the problem. The thing is, I also hate the stock android launcher due to its lack of folder support in the app menu and hate how it's just a direct list of apps.
I find the stock TouchWiz ROM perfectly functional, but I don't particularly enjoy it per say. I dabbled with ParanoidAndroid and loved the idea but was still irritated with the lack of features that CM10 at its base provides me with. I found that apps that were alternative to those that were baked into the Stock Samsung ROMs just weren't as good.
I use the flashlight and mono audio widgets a lot, I want folders in my application menu and I want any launcher I use to look professional and to go with the theme. I'd prefer the ROM to look just like stock android. The standard launcher with the option of folders would also be useful... I also enjoy customisation as far as colouring of themes goes, but this is something that Android seems to lack, strangely, that Bada (Shocking OS) could actually do very well.
Wanamlite is my most likely next choice as it improves upon stock, but still relies on TouchWiz.
So...
- Like Stock Android theming (Not Stock Touchwiz)
- Launcher that is aethstetically pleasing (Not misended, like GOLauncher) that supports folders in the app menu
- Good selection of widgets (Or alternatives I could download that don't look poorly made)
- Task Manager (As in Touchwiz)
- Apps that serve all the purposes that Samsung's stock ones do (A decent music player, Camera, Contacts, Messaging, Memo etc.)
- Healthy bunch of Theme customisation options (Kind of like Paranoid Android)
What would be your suggestions based on what I've said? If there is no ROM that meets even some of those requirements, what would you recommend I do? Can I integrate some of Samsung's software into something like CM10?
Thanks.
What about OMEGA v29 ?
Should satisfy your needs
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
I will have a look at that, a lot of people seem to use it and also the stock AOKP project.
Any other suggestions?
Check out Omega, it has a ton of themes for it now to change the look of the phone completely. Getting rid of that ugly Touchwiz interface that you described.
As for launcher I'm using Apex Launcher Pro. I've been through so many launchers in the past (ADW, Launcher Pro, Go Launcher, Nova) and have never left Apex since installing it. It has a ton of customization and lots of themes too to give you a different look altogether.
Another thing you could do like myself is dual boot CM10 and Samsung Stock and then you have the choice of what rom you want to boot into. The down side is that data within apps don't share between roms so you wont see the same texts in each rom (unless you backup/restore with Titanium but that's annoying.
Or check out MIUI if you like the iPhone interface, I've never been a fan personally but you may like it Best thing to advise you is flash the roms you think you'd like, flashing hundreds of time wont hurt your phone and as long as you have backups you wont lose any data just restore after flashing and you're good to go! :thumbup:
Sent from my GT-I9300
Thank you for the advice my friend!
Don't worry about advising me about flashes, I've flashed my S3 many times already xD The actual reason I want to try a different ROM now is because I managed to get a bunch of malware on the phone and need my monthly wipe lol. I thought it was an apt time to try something new.
What kernel do you use for dual booting? I'm a little reluctant to move away from Siyah as it's so great.
I think I will give Omega a go, once I get back from my outing today. I've backed up, just need to sort out what's on my SD card now.
Razyre said:
Thank you for the advice my friend!
Don't worry about advising me about flashes, I've flashed my S3 many times already xD The actual reason I want to try a different ROM now is because I managed to get a bunch of malware on the phone and need my monthly wipe lol. I thought it was an apt time to try something new.
What kernel do you use for dual booting? I'm a little reluctant to move away from Siyah as it's so great.
I think I will give Omega a go, once I get back from my outing today. I've backed up, just need to sort out what's on my SD card now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Siyah dualboots mate
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
hmm this seems like a best rom thread in disguise
thread closed